failure with HTH diseases

Discussion in 'Diseases' started by top dog, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. top dog

    top dog

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    Hey all
    been battling with my male umbee Fred who has hole in the head disease.
    some background
    he was a wild caught fish that came in with a huge bio-load of parasite, responded well to metro added to food and has live 3 years quite happily
    grown from 15cm to 38cm plus that he is now.
    3 months ago he got trapped or attacked (yes attacked he is rather pyshco) piece of drift wood in his tank, damaging himself on the head, mouth and cheeks.
    the damage heeled well over the next month and the drift wood removed to prevent it happening again.
    last 3 weeks his appetite has decreased, he poop has gone a touch whiter.
    i felt that he probably had flatlets decided to try treat metro mixed in with food
    he ate first day then promptly stopped
    he has started showing signs of hth disease as he will not eat decided to treat water
    used metro plus as per recommendations 9.7grams for 40ltrs of water. 1300 litre tank means:
    did 330gram dose on tank 3rd day 50% water change, no positive signs still not eating.
    dosed 330gram again 3rd day 50% water change, seems to have stopped spreading still not eating
    dosed 330grams again will be doing a 50% change tonight and see

    i remember metro having far more visible signs that is is working than metro plus. If i am honest i believe the metro plus to be weaker than flaglet tablets i have used in the past from vets.

    i am going to give freddy 2 weeks to recover from this dose and asses how he is doing.
    do not believe he has recovered from infection but want to give him a few weeks to recover from meds.

    plan at this point is to get a poop sample to the vet and go hard ie double or tipple dose of metro from tablets supplement with food soaked in metro.

    i have delt with this before in the past and felt very confident in the treatment, It failed and now i am researching frantically and discovering how these bugs have become metro resistant. so going for help from the vet.

    would love so information please, with what dosage you have used metro before

    how i have used metro before :

    Dosage :
    - 100mg metronidazole per 40L of tank water per treatment. Crush the tablets, shake the powder up vigorously with tank water and add to the tank.
    - Day 1 : 30% water change. Give correct dose of metro.
    - Day 2 : Skip
    - Day 3 : 30% water change. Give correct dose of metro.
    - Day 4 : Skip
    - Day 5 : 30% water change. Give correct dose of metro.
    - Day 6 : Skip
    - Day 7 : 30% water change. Done!
     
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  3. MariaS

    MariaS Moderator

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    @top dog

    Sorry to hear about Fred and hope it comes right

    Minimum or normal dosage of Metro in the water column for flagellates is actually 7000mg for 1000l so you should be dosing almost 15000mg in a 1300l tank
    If i work it out correctly you only dosing at 3200mg per 1000l

    For stubborn cases I know that up to 34mg per liter has been used

    If memory serves me right, Kanaplex is often used and Erythromycin but I will check my notes later
    Only thing with Erythromycin, it can take a toll on your filters
     
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  4. rednox

    rednox CA Cichlids

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    Sorry to hear man all the best..
     
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  5. OP
    top dog

    top dog

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    @MariaS thanks for input
    Have not looked online to see actual strength of the metro plus i used. but if dosage was a low as you say, there lies my problem.
    think the vet tablets is the answer found this metro plus to very expensive and really far from happy with results thus far.
    hopefully he starts eating again soon and i can take a proper sample to vet.
     
  6. David Kusner

    David Kusner

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    Sorry to hear that! Metro is hellish expensive and seem the price went up again! Does aquarium salt and increased temp possibly as well assist in the healing process? Also what about adding crushed garlic to the food?
     
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  7. OP
    top dog

    top dog

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    tank temp 28 for now, do not want to go warmer with metro as i am worried about oxygen level in the tank, metro it self lowers oxygen levels.
    will try some salt during the 2 weeks i am going to give him to recover.
    crushed garlic as in trying to encourage him to eat? or added medical benefit such as claims against ich?
     
  8. MariaS

    MariaS Moderator

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    @top dog , I usually get the generic Metronidazole 400mg tablets and never had a problem

    The last lot i got was BTab Metronidazole which is also 400mg and I just usually ask my pharmacist.
    He knows about the fish so he always helps if i need

    @Marco can maybe just confirm my dosage but I have discussed with him in the past and I have gone back to my notes from when he helped me

    But.... Im also reading through your post again as the title says failure with HTH disease but if his head healed etc.. im confused why you referring to HTH

    You also say his poop has gone whiter
    Considering he is wild caught, I think you should Prazi him...
     
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  9. MariaS

    MariaS Moderator

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    Garlic is a natural anti oxidant and antibiotic as well as good preventative for worms
    You can give the garlic in conjunction with any meds
     
  10. David Kusner

    David Kusner

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    Well essentially both, but more from the point of view of getting him to eat, especially with medicated feeds to try and mask the taste/smell of the meds. I am no scientist, but I have always noticed that the fish seem to be able to "smell" the food almost immediately it is placed in the tank. Taste seems to be a secondary thing! I think this is one of the reasons they will put virtually anything in their mouths that can fit and spit it out if it does not seem edible to them.

    Also their is this local manufactured product that I have had success with on my larger fish like Oscars, got it at Wild on Pets!
    aqua-dox.jpg
     
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  11. Saibot

    Saibot

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    Almost word for word how I explained it to my dad when he was over last weekend. He watched me feed and was shocked how quickly they reacted to the food in the tank.
     
  12. OP
    top dog

    top dog

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    @MariaS sorry will try explain better. typing is generally not my strong point.
    hole in the head disease is caused by stress in environment: poor water quality, poor diet, and injury.
    tank water gets 2 50% water changes a week, readings
    nitrate:>30ppm
    nitrite: 0 no reading
    ammonia: 0 no reading
    food: hikari jumbo carni sticks, hikari food sticks.
    The injuries freddy did to himself a few months back was the stress that allowed the parasite to take hold again. I like to believe new infection but not ruling out possibility, he was never fully clear and in a unstressed environment lived well with parasites.
    damage to his head caused buy the drift wood is cleared up, but i can now see small damaged grey areas and small cyst on his head and faintly along lateral line. together with stringy white poop i am 100% i am dealing with hth.
    After a day of trying to work out exact mg of the hakari metro plus i am still drawing blanks.
    the 400mg tabs are best and wish i had used them could have saved him by now.

    he has gone threw a prazi cycle 2 moths back when i did the ray tank.
    guess it would not hurt to try again
     
  13. OP
    top dog

    top dog

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    thanks will try this for sure
     
  14. OP
    top dog

    top dog

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    0166F814-7C74-4CF9-962E-5B177C1D151C.jpeg 80F63605-0FED-4E88-9F7C-029A99D5D15A.jpeg EC3B521C-3126-4736-A776-9B3E7E7D3ED6.jpeg 5FEA5E0E-E0A3-4CD3-A139-983C55CBACBD.jpeg

    Snapped a few pics of what Freddy has going on.
    Mostly want to uses pics as a reference going forward. He ate a few pellets this morning so will hopefully have poop sample for vet soon
     
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  15. Saibot

    Saibot

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    Awesome thread actually. Been interesting.
     
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  16. T. Guppy

    T. Guppy

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    Hope you can get him sorted out!
     
  17. Barry Roux

    Barry Roux

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    Won't nemarid help?
     
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  18. OP
    top dog

    top dog

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    thanks never heard of this or used it but googled.
    going to wait a week while he is eating again, before anymore drugs and hopefully have a diagnoses from vet
     
  19. Barry Roux

    Barry Roux

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    If you want i have some i can borrow.
     
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  20. OP
    top dog

    top dog

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    thank you very much for the offer
    will pm you if i need
     
  21. MariaS

    MariaS Moderator

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    I guess we can never be sure but you are correct in saying that in an unstressed environment the fish can handle and live with a certain amount of parasites
    In fact wildcaught fish all carry parasites yet in their natural environment they living with them and no problem
    If not completely clear from the first lot of prazi there can be some dormant parasites which with the stress flare up again
    Lets hope he gets better now and you can get a poo sample
    I have 400mg metro tabs so if you need shout
     
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