Freshwater Stingrays.. Husbandry and care sheet

Discussion in 'Oddball fish' started by MariaS, Feb 20, 2017.

  1. MariaS

    MariaS Retired Moderator

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    Hi Everyone…

    Every now and then we are receiving pm messages from members interested or starting to take an interest in Ray keeping so I just thought the time has come to post a thread on stingrays husbandry and their profiles on the forum as there is not much info on them on this forum.
    Stingrays were blacklisted in SA until 2014 when the latest blacklist was published. It took a while before any were seen for sale but in the last year the demand has increased and a number of them have come into the country and are being advertised for sale so I think the time has come to include a thread on Ray keeping and the different species in our oddball forum
    I will try and be as accurate as possible and include as much information as I can think of ….
    I know there are a few other ray keepers on the forum. @Reedfish, @Jwh, @Cesar… if I miss anything or you would like to add your comments and experiences, please feel free to do so, every bit of info helps new enthusiasts.. After all we are all still learning which is why I think this info has become necessary
    Anyone with questions… ask away..

    First and foremost. Before I start…A plea to everyone… Ray keeping is an absolutely amazing experience BUT… means commitment and has to be a conscientious decision on your side so think carefully before you take the step…
    Secondly….. Remember the ray’s spike IS VENEMOUS and this should not be taken lightly. Rays are also not really recommended for beginners and certainly not for kids to be allowed to handle …


    Rays ARE venomous (either marine or f/w), or rather, the stinger in their tail is venomous. Beyond the fact that the f/w ray’s venom, like almost all animals living in water, is of protein origin, there’s very little known.
    Fatalities are extremely rare, but they happen although mostly occurring in the wild but there have been cases with captive rays, (in the wild its mainly kids playing in shallow water stepping on rays that are buried in the sand and/or fishermen removing rays from their nets, and mostly refer to injuries to abdomen or "big" veins)
    From what I have read, an added risk comes from "residual of organic matter" remaining in the wound (i.e. stinger’s parts, the stinger breaks in pieces when the ray hits).
    All species of stingray have very similar venoms; however some species are more potent than others. They all contain these enzymes, serotonin, 5-nucleotidase and phosphodiesterase. The last two enzymes responsible for the necrosis and tissue breakdown seen in a stingray sting.
    The serotonin is the enzyme which causes the excruciating pain in the area of the wound. If the injury if left untreated the actions of these enzymes will continue to cause pain and tissue breakdown.
    Wounds are – it’s said - EXTREMELY painful, and require a very long time to heal. I have read reports the wounded part was numb SIX YEARS after the "shot"!!!
    From what I have read everywhere and our experience in the last 3 years, in general, Rays are not aggressive and will only sting for self-defence but DO NOT BECOME COMPLACENT and be extra careful when working in the tank that you don’t frighten them suddenly. Work with slow movements.
    The older Rays like Cesar’s Ray can become very tame and you have to take care as often when he cleans the tank Ray will come right up to his hand or the gravel vac looking for food.
    Treat this as you would with a striking venomous snake.. stay dead still and let them swim away, don’t chase the ray away and scare it…. That is looking for trouble
    Also remember that rays shed their spike every few months and it stays poisonous for months after being shed so keep a close eye on your ray when you see she has 2 spikes so that when the old one drops off you can look for it in the gravel when you gravel vac and remove it and discard it in a safe manner
    If you get spiked, First-Aid measures include the following essential steps:


    1. Control any visible haemorrhage; if a blood vessel is pierced, apply hard direct pressure, regardless of how painful that might be, over the source of the bleeding.

    2. Do not apply a tourniquet or pressure bandage on the entire limb; widespread swelling and systemic effects are unlikely in limb bites.

    3. Immediately place the bitten spot into water as hot as one can stand; caregivers might test it before placing the victim's sting in it. This should quickly help to lessen pain, and the area should remain immersed until pain subsides.

    4. Disinfect the area immediately on removal from hot water. The sting area can be treated with Betadine [tm] solution and scrubbed with a soft bristle brush with clean cool water and a mild disinfectant soap.

    5. Seek medical help even if the bite is considered trivial. The site should, at the very least, be x-rayed for the presence of broken spines and spine barbs.

    Medical care measures include the following essential steps:

    1. Treating physicians can use an infiltrating injection of 1% lidocaine to control pain if indicated. The lidocaine infiltration can be made directly into the sting or wound. Curiously, this technique has proved to be helpful in minimizing tissue necrosis, although the mechanism is not clear.

    A Few words on origin, evolution, and original biotopes:

    Freshwater stingrays, as odd as it may seem, are much closer – from an evolutional point of view - to Pacific rays than to their counterparts living in the Atlantic. Ages ago they got trapped while browsing for food in an estuarine area in what is the actual Amazon basin when the Andes rose (because of a terrific earthquake).
    Before that time, the Amazon river was flowing into the Pacific ocean. As a consequence of that traumatic event, the salt rate begun to lower, and step by step, the Amazon rays became used to fresh water. At the present time, other rays from Africa and the Far East can be considered, from a biological point of view, the link between Amazonian FW stingrays and the ones living in salt environments. About 90% of FW stingrays presently available for the hobbyist’s market are from the Amazon Basin and belong to the Potamotrygon group the most widely available is the Motoro.
    The family of South American stingrays, Potamotrygonidae, contains 20 known species and is the only elasmobranch family in which all species require freshwater.

    Aquarium keeping:
    Most Rays which are being imported to SA, as far as I know are captive bred as a ban has been put in place in Brazil on the capture and export of a lot of the species particularly black rays so you should not have a problem.
    Wild caught Rays should be chosen from already quarantined and feeding specimens. Dealing with newly arrived wild collected specimens may result in being a tricky matter as often they carry parasites and need to be treated.
    Never forget that rays are scale less fish, and treating them properly is neither easy nor "simple". Take the same approach as to clown loaches with a little extra caution. Do not add medication/chemicals unnecessarily.
    Rays are covered with placoid scales Also called dermal denticles. Its the denticles that give the texture of smooth sandpaper.
    Placoid scales can’t actually grow in size, instead more scales are added as the fish increases in size.
    If you must use salt, ensure it's fully dissolved before pouring it to your aquarium. Adding salt directly may burn your ray disc and can be proven fatal

    The second point to consider when it comes to dealing with rays is THINK BIG, as big as you can … and then go a step further! Some specimens get very big but we will look at the different species individually
    Ensure that you have the time/ commitment that these demanding fish require. If cared for correctly they may live for up to 20 years and most of them grow to over 18" diameter. Around 45 cm plus.
    Don’t start off with a small tank and say I WILL UPGRADE.. WE ALL KNOW LIFE TAKES UNEXPECTED TURNS… if you are serious about rays first spend the money on your set up and then order your rays
    Minimum, Minimum tank size for a pair of fully grown rays is 2.5m X 1.2m
    Growth rate is related not only to species but also to food supply, to a certain degree, but correctly kept rays are fierce feeders and fast growers! When dealing with small/medium sized rays aquascaping in the tank could be in the "Amazon River" fashion but, then, when it comes to dealing with adult (and possibly large) specimens, their size and strength has to be taken into due consideration!
    When aquascaping the tank, special care should must be taken to avoid contact between rays and heater(s) as they get burnt EASILY! And their recovery is said to be anything but easy! Heater burns can infect and kill your ray

    As for decorations, don’t use anything with sharp edges and be careful of small rocks
    Rays in the wild dig in the sand for crustaceans and once your ray reaches about 20cm diameter she will be strong enough to move rocks around in the tank.
    Cesar’s Rose is an expert at doing this… we started hearing knocking sounds every now and then until we established it was aunty Rose moving the rocks around!!

    Substrate is a matter of preference either bare bottom or sand (non silica) or smooth fine gravel. Pfs is great
    Take care that your substrate doesn’t irritate the ray’s sensitive skin.

    Ensure your tank is covered!!! Rays are not the boring bottom dwellers you might have in mind…
    If they are happy Rays constantly swim around, up and down the glass and often by doing this have part of their disc above your tank.. Cesar’s Ray does this all the time and some of the pups are already doing it too
    They also love to swim over the air bubbles and play in the current of your filter returns… so although they don’t jump they can easily fall out of the tank and you will either lose your ray or have a daunting task of trying to pick up a venomous frightened fish off the floor


    Filtration and water quality:
    As with many fishes that share a reputation for being difficult to keep, it is partly undeserved. Although some species are more sensitive than others a healthy ray is a robust animal, and problems are usually due to lack of a proper understanding of care requirements and water quality… if you can keep discus.. you can keep rays except you need a bigger tank and filtration so lets go through some of the requirements
    When dealing with filters, LARGE filtration is needed as they consume large amounts of food and some are messy eaters, they produce heavy amounts of bio load and amonia and they are sensitive to water quality (always use more than one unit: better safe than sorry!), they are always, no matter how hard you try, undersized so Ensure that you provide the correct filtration. Always buy a filter unit that has a capacity that is far greater than the tank it is to be used with. Rays eat a lot and so produce a large amount of waste. Because of the amount of waste rays produce it is vital that your aquarium is fully cycled. Also use a filter/power head that will provide a good flow rate through the aquarium. Rays enjoy living in fast moving well-aerated water.
    Ideally you should run a sump with rays as not only does it provide extra filtration but also more volume of water. Also gives you where to safely house your heaters out of the way
    The use of pre filters on your inlets will help a lot in keeping the filters cleaner
    These wonderful creatures are extremely sensitive to high levels of ammonia, nitrite/nitrates. Ammonia is lethal to rays very quickly and the higher the ph the more lethal the ammonia is,. Warning: when readings go beyond the limits over extended periods it may result in a sort of irreversible poisoning ending with the death of the animal. Hence, frequent water changes are a must, at least 60% weekly, depending on the ray(s) size, tank size, and filters in use.
    Water temperature neither below 27° C, nor exceeding 30° C.
    Pups should be kept at 29 C
    Whenever something goes wrong with water chemistry, FW rays show their dislike by stopping to get food and/or showing a lethargic behaviour.
    Ammonia and Nitrite HAVE TO BE - 0 ppm…. THEY ARE EXTREMELY SENSITIVE TO AMONIA and Nitrite, Nitrate 5 - 10 ppm. In order to keep the water parameters at these desired levels large weekly/bi-weekly water changes must be carried out religiously.
    Ph should be between 6 and anything up to 8.5 although ideal is 7.
    If your ph is a little high, Don’t fiddle with Ph, acclimate the ray and let her get used to the Ph in your tank.
    Rays will easily adapt to various ph levels, The most important thing is to keep the ph stable. When you fiddle and try to adjust it, the variations in the ph will more likely kill your ray instead of the higher ph

    Acclimatizing your new ray
    It is vital that your tank is fully cycled before introducing a ray!!!

    Once you have bought your new ray & hurried home don’t rush and pop it into its new home like you would with a regular fish say after you have floated the bag in the tank for 15 minutes. Rays are very sensitive to changes in water chemistry. Because of this it is essential that you slowly adjust the water that the ray came in to suit the water in your tank. The easiest way is to first remove about 1/3 of the water out of the bag the ray is in & then connect an airline to your existing aquarium to use as a siphon & use a clamp to reduce the water flow to a steady drip. Then slowly add the existing tank water into the bag. Once you have replaced slightly more water in the bag than you have taken out you are ready to put the ray into its new home.

    Feeding:
    Feed them fish’s fillets, shrimps/prawn, earthworms, mealworms, and alike. Try and get them to eat sinking pellets as well as it will make your life easier. Massivore sinking pellets is what is recommended everywhere I have read
    Rays should not be fed the meat of mammals such as beef heart or chicken. Some of the lipids contained in these meats cannot be properly metabolised by the fish, and can cause excess deposits of fat and even organ degeneration. Similarly there is no benefit in the use of ‘feeder’ fish such as livebearers or small goldfish. Risks involved with these include the possible introduction of disease or parasites

    Tank mates:
    Tank mates have to be chosen (beyond other rays) among Amazon heavyweights that are not aggressive but not too small to be ray food, geos are great as they sieve through the substrate all the time, severums, Arowana, and more; There are reports of rays happily going on with Discus and Angels (P. scalare/P. altum) but from what I have read its short lived as, as the rays grow and swim around they stress out the discus and even "big sized" characins in their quarters you have to take care and monitor how it goes. Tank size and temperament of individual fish all play a role
    We have tried the ray discus combination to put to the test but its not fair as the discus are scared of the rays
    Some say Oscars and rays are fine but only if there is one Oscar only and he isn’t too territorial, its luck of the draw
    My clown loaches and Rays get along fine.
    Polypterus must be large enough not to fit in the ray's mouth, but small enough that it won't attempt to chew on the ray's disc. Despite the fact that both types of fish are bottom dwellers, I believe they make fantastic tankmates. Just be sure that you provide the poly with plenty of places to hide and rest.
    Housing sucker mouth catfishes with rays can be a risky matter, despite the fact they come from the same biotope, since most of the former fishes (catfish) have, or could have, the bad habit of "sucking" the slime coat from the ray and this habit could result, in the end, in bleeding wounds likely to end as infection "start-center". BTW, most feared are said to be "common plecos" (hypostomus sp.).
    Large catfishes also produce massive bioload which will add to your already huge bioload produced by the rays
    I’m aware of a good compatibility between rays of different kinds, even with a fair difference in size, and aggressiveness is almost always at low levels! One of the habits shown by rays to declare their own higher lever in tank’s hierarchy (against other conspecifics) is known as " topping": the dominant specimens simply tops (swim over him and the rest)

    Husbandry and Breeding:
    These fishes are elasmobranches ("non-bony fishes") like sharks, marine rays, mantas and show an extremely clear sexual dimorphism, in which the mature males carry two claspers (along both sides of the tail). Pregnancy is internal and it’s reported to last three months although there are hundreds of cases where if the female is not stressed she will carry her pups up to 6 months.
    If you are planning to breed and get yourself a pair, make sure that you have a spare tank where to house the male should the need arise
    Sometimes the male settles down after mating the female and sometimes he doesn’t and he chases the female around harassing and stressing her which can cause her to lose the pups in which case you need to separate them for a while
    If you have no intention to breed and you just want a nice display my recommendation is you get females only. There is no colour difference between the two so you still have a stunning display without the stress
    If you are breeding, the comparative size of the pair is particularly important as courtship can be a somewhat violent affair, particularly if the female is unwilling to spawn. It’s therefore essential that the she is large enough to defend herself. When in spawning condition the male will chase her incessantly, often biting her on the body and around the edge of the disc and amazingly he can cause a lot of damage. He does so as in order to mate as the pair must position themselves so that their bellies are facing each other. The male uses his mouth to take hold of the female and slide underneath her. If this behaviour continues for too long with no successful mating event real physical damage can occur. Keep a close eye on developments if your rays begin to show signs of mating behaviour, and have the facilities on hand to separate them if need be. You can try reintroducing them a few days later if necessary.
    The spawning act itself is quite brief, lasting only a few seconds. Fertilisation occurs internally, the male inserting one of his claspers into the cloaca of the female before releasing his milt. Following a successful mating event the male should stop harassing his partner.
    Gestation in captive rays generally takes between 9-12 weeks although if happy and no stress on the female she can hold her pups up to 6 or 7 months. During the latter stages the developing young can sometimes be seen as a visible (sometimes moving!) lump rising from the posterior end of the female’s back, although in well-fed specimens this can be tricky to spot It’s essential to feed the female in sufficient quantities during this period as she will expend a lot of energy providing for her pups, and her appetite will increase significantly. Pregnant females are generally safe to be left in situ, although once the pups are born they’re best removed to avoid predation by other tank mates. If the rays are being maintained alone the adults won’t usually harm them although the chance is always there. Most breeders prefer to remove the pups for the sake of safety. The water in the tank is usually cloudy following a birth (this is thought to be caused by fluids released as the pups leave the body of the female), and a large water change is recommended once they’ve have been removed.
    Litters can vary in size from 1 or 2 pups to anything up to 7 or 8
    The pups usually have a small yolk sac attached at birth, and they will feed from this for anything up to a week. After the sac has been absorbed they should be offered high quality live and frozen foods several times a day. Some may initially refuse dead foods, but they can usually be weaned quite easily by mixing in a little live food when feeding. Growth is quite rapid with a stringent regime of water changes and the correct amount of food.
    If you’re lucky enough to own a pair of rays that are breeding regularly, give the female a break from the male after each litter. Females use up a lot of energy in producing young and it may drastically shorten their lifespan if they’re forced to mate continuously.
    This will again call for a spare tank to house the male for a few months
    Some good books
    • Dr. Richard A. Ross – Freshwater stingrays – a complete pet owner manual. Barron’s
    • Dr. Richard A. Ross –Freshwater stingrays from South America – Aqualof Verlag
    Rays are amazing creatures…..only once you have kept one will you understand how they creep into your heart… be conscientious and responsible before you take the step and give them the love and respect they deserve

    I hope I have covered the most important basics…
    I will be putting some species profiles together but It will probably take me a few days as I fit in in my spare time so please.. hang in there
     
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  3. Reedfish

    Reedfish Moderator

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    @MariaS,

    Excellent, well written article.

    From my limited experience (have kept them for just over a year) I have found they are not as difficult and as finicky about water parameters as is often made out.
    But...I will qualify that comment: Some species are apparently easier than others.
    So start with one of the easier species.

    And secondly, and very very very very (cannot stress this enough) important. Make sure your fish is eating before you take it home.
    I have heard of many cases (including a good friend of mine) of Rays just refusing to eat, getting the dreaded curl, and dying.

    I saw my Rays eat live river shrimps before I handed over the money. The lfs gave me a bag of shrimp, and I got some live earthworms.
    Within 24 hours of being introduced to my tank, they were both eating well. It took a week or so to convert them to smelt. And they reluctantly take small pieces of fresh salmon. Despite trying all sorts of methods (except force starving), I cannot get them to take pellets.
     
  4. OP
    MariaS

    MariaS Retired Moderator

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    Thanks @Reedfish....

    Thanks for adding your comments which are very, very valid

    Only problem for us in SA at the moment is that the LFS's aren't really importing rays to keep in stock so to say..

    They are bringing them in mostly on request from customers.
    Sometimes they might need to bring in an extra ray or two to fill the box which you would then find in their tank for sale but what you have ordered they expect you to be there on their arrival from the airport to collect them.
    For example the black diamonds and my P14 we had to pay half up front on placing the order so when they arrived they phoned Cesar and told him to be there at a certain time so.... You are left with the dilemma.. do i tell them to keep them a few days and God knows who will be looking after them or do I take them straight home.. well.. we brought them straight home..

    So far we have been lucky and they all pounce on earthworms straight away
    The only one we had a problem with for 2 days was my little one, and she was tinny....she just wouldn't eat until Cesar decided to give her massivore and she pounced on the pellets like you cant believe!!!

    None of our other rays want pellets either so dont feel bad... hahaha

    But as you say, if you go to the LFS and the rays are there in their tank for sale, you must ask them to feed them so you are sure they are eating
     
  5. Reedfish

    Reedfish Moderator

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    @MariaS

    I guess that is a dilemma. If the initial supplier/breeder is reliable, you have a measure of comfort there?
    But I would be very nervous about it.

    Other issue I want to raise is tank mates.

    Initially I had mine with Chocolate cichlid, orange head Geos and Severums

    The severums out of curiosity kept pecking the Rays. In particular their tails sticking out of the substrate.
    And the Geos kept trying to breed and kept having a go at the Rays as soon as they came into their half of the tank. So they both had to go.

    I now have 3 different types of Silver Dollar which seems to be working.

    I also have a Golden Nugget Plec in the tank. So far he leaves the Rays alone. But if I see one sore on their bodies, he will be gone too

    I was a bit nervous about the lungfish and the Rays. But Rays were kept with him at the lfs I got him from (although in a bigger tank). So I thought it would be ok.
    So far it seems to be working. The Rays treat him like a big log and glide over him.
     
  6. OP
    MariaS

    MariaS Retired Moderator

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    @Reedfish

    Thanks again for sharing your experiences.

    Personally I think tank mates is always a gamble and you have to take the general consensus and experiment and see what works for you

    As often happens the advice varies from website to website and in the end you land up with a list of fish that 'should' work and from there you have to try
    I also think that tank size and the character of individual fish of the same species also plays a role

    For example, both Cesar and I have Flagtails which are very, very peaceful the only risk with flagtails and rays is that they have sucker mouths like catfish and can suck the rays slimecoat
    Cesar can not have his flagtail with the rays as he sucks their slimecoat every now and then yet my flagtail has never done it
    I had Ray with him a few months while Rose was pregnant and now I have 3 ray pups with him for the last month, no problem... same species different fish..

    Severums, Ihave two large ones a red shoulder and a red they also dont bother the rays at all but we also looking at a 2.5m tank so they not under each others nose

    Red head geos/tapajos... they damn cheeky... had to take mine out and put him with my oscars and he challenges them!!
    Yet the geophagus surinamensis both Cesar and i have with the rays and no problem but again you looking at 2.5 and 3.5m tanks so they also have plenty space

    Silver dollars make sense and should work as they always at the top of the tank. The reason why we havent used any is we have the arowanas and they dont like too much activity under their noses

    The lungfish isnt an agressive fish is he? If he is not agressive and not hungry he should be ok with them..

    I find the clown loaches and the rays hilarious.. the loaches sit on the rays (ok.. the big rays) and take a ride on top of the ray!!
    We have tried to capture this on pictures but they too fast .. but its absolutely hilarious

    So.... at the end of the day its a bit of trial and error until you find the right balance in your tank

    Also, i might add.. the rays temperament is not all the same....
    We have found to our amazement that black diamonds are extremely cheeky and take no nonsense from other fish... couple days ago I gave the babies worms and the severum tried to pinch one, we were stunned to see a 13cm pup pounce on a large severum and not allow it to pinch the worm!!
     
  7. Reedfish

    Reedfish Moderator

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    @MariaS

    The lungfish is not aggressive at all
    But he is more or less blind.
    So he just "cruises along" and bumps into things. Was worried that might stress the Rays, but I think they just treat him like a moving log.

    I was considering a Flagtail, but have read they can suck slime coat, so not taking a chance.
     
  8. OP
    MariaS

    MariaS Retired Moderator

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    I guess that as long as he doesnt dart around the tank then the rays are happy to have him as a mate

    Flagtail is a stunning addition but it is luck of the draw.. some do and some dont....
     
  9. Reedfish

    Reedfish Moderator

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    Some fish behave until something triggers the bad behaviour. But once they start, there is nothing you can do to stop them.

    I have a fantastic Tiger Knife Fish a few years ago.
    Had him for about 6 months in a largish fish community (Angels, larger Rainbows etc).
    I went on holiday and had a friend come around twice a week to feed. Came back to a few missing fish. Even after I resumed feeding on a daily basis, every morning the lights would go on to a half eaten fish. I worked out that it was the knife that must have started attacking the others when it was hungry, and had gotten into the habit of it.
    Didn't have another suitable large tank, so had to get rid of him.
     
  10. Hendre

    Hendre Polypterus freak

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    Nitrates are a little misleading, people have gone ham on waterchanges but still get 40+ nitrates with little harm done on the rays
     
  11. Reedfish

    Reedfish Moderator

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    If you are doing big water changes, and Nitrates are still high there are 2 possible causes:

    Filter is in need of a clean
    Your tap water is high in nitrates, and you should possibly consider using RO.

    Although Rays may tolerate high nitrates, it's not ideal.
     
  12. Hendre

    Hendre Polypterus freak

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    The consensus is that rays have a highly inneficient digestive system and it's simply difficult to keep nitrates down. I don't know their filter system so maybe that's the cause. People breed and raise rays in this

    Some also suspect that synthetic nitrates have less effect on fish.

    That's just stuff I have heard
     
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    MariaS

    MariaS Retired Moderator

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    @Hendre... @Reedfish...

    These are extracts from other websites

    . Water quality
    A basic guide to the water quality that most rays require is as follows: Newly acquired rays require a pH range between 6.5 - 7.0, but once acclimated most rays can survive within a pH range of 6.0 - 8.5. The main thing is to ensure that the pH stays at a constant level. Rays are very intolerant of fluctuating pH levels. Ammonia - 0 ppm, Nitrite - 0 ppm, Nitrate 5 - 10 ppm. In order to keep the water parameters at these desired levels large weekly/bi-weekly water changes must be carried out religiously.


    Nitrate
    Nitrate, being the end product of the nitrogen cycle, is the least harmful waste substance to freshwater aquaria. At higher concentrations however, they can irritate sensitive fish, especially FW Stingrays. Large, frequent water changes are a must when keeping stingrays, as their massive ammonia production will cause rapid increase in Nitrate. The only way to combat this is by water changes, and dilution through larger volumes of water.


    I have now gone through dozens of websites and hundreds of threads both on other forums and on MFK where some of the top stingray keepers post.
    It appears that once you have more than two decent sized stingrays, its almost impossible to keep your nitrates at 0ppm due to the huge amount of food they consume and subsequent bioload

    From what I have established most of the guys with some of the most expensive and rare ray collections with multiple rays, are recording at least about 50ppm some 80ppm for years with apparently no side effects and breeding.
    I am not saying this is ideal, I am just sharing the information I have gathered in the last few months

    Which is why it takes a lot af commitment and huge water changes to keep water quality at good levels

    RO water is an option but it does not appear to be favoured by most as I believe the flactuations caused by what you have to add to it are more dangerous for the rays than slightly off PH and nitrates.

    Amonia and nitrites but especially amonia is deadly and horrifying what it does to the rays

    Someone Cesar knows bought some rays i think about 3 weeks ago and lost 2 to amonia poisoning over the weekend
    It is horrifying what amonia does to them... I was totaly shocked.... I will post a picture later.
     
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  14. OP
    MariaS

    MariaS Retired Moderator

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    Morning everyone....

    I promised to keep this thread updated and share things that happen in order to try and help any other stingray owner out there so here goes....

    Two weeks ago, Cesar got a whatsApp message late at night from someone he has befriended that has now also got stingrays.

    Please help my rays are dying!! and we were sent a picture asking if we could identify what was wrong
    We were horrified.. I have to admit that the tears came to my eyes...
    Anyway.. it was instant reaction.. we looked at each other... Amonia burn/poisoning..

    Right or wrong as we had never dealt with this before.. our first reaction was to tell him to get the two rays that were still alive out the tank to another tank he had and then start doing water changes etc on the problem tank.
    We told him to add a mild dose of salt to help with their slime coat
    The two rays that were moved recovered and are doing well but he lost two...

    Below is a picture of the one ray..

    We always emphasize to people how ammonia spikes can be deadly and uncycled tanks etc.. but I dont think anyone actually realizes how bad it is or what it actually does to the gills of our fish as they pretty covered and you cant see that well inside
    A ray has no protection so.... this is what happens....
    This is what happens to your fish... you might just not see it so well..
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
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    MariaS

    MariaS Retired Moderator

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  16. Hendre

    Hendre Polypterus freak

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    This happens to any fish without scales. Methylene blue is your best friend here
     
  17. OP
    MariaS

    MariaS Retired Moderator

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    Probably yes but I have never seen for example lclowns loaches look this bad...
    This happens to fish with scales's gills, you might just not see it

    Methylene blue is very contraversial... stains everything and.... i dont see it recommended anywhere for rays so i will rather not recommend..
    Salt however is widely recommended by all the big ray keepers and i have been very sucessfull with it so i feel safe recommending
     
  18. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie

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    Shame he doesn't look good. I would also go with salt only an WC, it saved 2 of my discus from a heavy skin infection. The guy from king of diy mos said that rays give off +- 10 times more ammonia while breathing alone than other fish. His bio probably died or just wasn't up to the job I guess. Still....it's not nice seeing a fish like this ai. The owner must be devastated.
     
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  19. OP
    MariaS

    MariaS Retired Moderator

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    That one is dead @BoelderBeestie .... I was in tears when i saw the picture and it wasnt even mine....
    What that poor ray suffered....

    Yes... they say an 8 inch ray is the equivalent of 3 or 4 adult oscars.. off the top of my head..

    He is devastated... felt very sorry for him but at least we saved the other two.
     
  20. Reedfish

    Reedfish Moderator

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    Have never heard this before.
    I think the issue of the higher ammonia stems from the fact that Rays get fed a very high protein diet 2 or 3 times a day.

    @MariaS
    A shame this person lost Rays?
    Did he not cycle the filter first?
     
  21. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie

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    @Reedfish I also didn't quite buy into it 100% but found this, very interesting. It's from monsterfishkeeping. Now put the feeding on top of that and boom...most horrible water quality ever.

    Water Quality
    Freshwater Stingray are sensitive to water parameters.
    • Ammonia
      Ammonia is incredibly lethal to all fish. Ammonia is more toxic the higher the pH. Stingrays produce a massive amount of ammonia due to their osmoregulatory system that has evolved to sustain life in completely freshwater. They have repressed rectal glands, a tool for managing salts in osmosis, but this also means they can not retrain urea and ammonia like most Saltwater fish. These internal functions are what make FW stingrays produce more ammonia than their body could seemingly produce, even at juvenile sizes. Most freshwater fish have the ability to retain urea within the plasma of their blood, but due to a FW stingrays unique osmoregulatory system they no longer have this ability. The ability to retain urea within plasma serves as a detoxification tool for environmental ammonia, thus making Stingrays more susceptible to ammonia poisoning. This is where dilution and water volume become very important.
     

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