May they rot in Hell!

Discussion in 'Fish pics' started by Go-Big, Apr 6, 2011.

  1. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie Active Member

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    Crossbreeding something on purpose that can't survive without human intervention is wrong. It's fact not opinion.
     
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  3. Jwh

    Jwh Active Member

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    @jc16, not disagreeing with your sentiment. Most fish have pharyngeal plates in their throats to chew food with, and use their primary jaws to grab the food and hold food, so fish chewing food in their throats is normal, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_jaw.
     
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  4. Saturn

    Saturn Active Member

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    As an avid goldfish enthusiast I too am a little bit vary of fish being deformed to much, this is the reason why I will never keep celestials or bubble eyes, having said this I know of people who keep these fish and who is also very considerate about their fish. etc low voltage lights as not to harm the celestials eyes by bright lights and keeping compatible tankmates together. but then again new deformities mean new breeds, for example we now have a breed of goldfish with four bubbles around its eyes instead of just two, look at the dragonball goldfish, they are golfball size pearlscales with telescope eyes.

    I also think that there is a difference between selective breeding and unnatural injection of chemicals into fish. If it was not for the complexities of the varies goldfish strains than I would not have been part of this amazing hobby.
     
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  5. Jwh

    Jwh Active Member

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    That would be a problem with all domesticated animals, be they pets or farm animals, very few would continue to exist in their present forms or at all, if humans were to disappear overnight.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
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  6. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie Active Member

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    @Jwh thats true but they are food and dogs where domesticated for hunting and protection. Breeding something with deformities for pure amusement is wrong.

    The alsation that won last years world comp was later disqualified because it was bred to have a more arched back than normal and that made it hard for the dog to walk. Arched backs somehow score higher in comps.

    We are supposed to cull the deformed fish not make it worse because it looks cute or cool.

    Selective Breeding in my opinion is fine but breeding a deformity is not the way forward. And thats where the line should be drawn.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
  7. jc16

    jc16 Active Member

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    @Jwh they might be able to but by taking away use of their mouths is still wrong... Plus I've had and still have ..a number of large American cichlids and let me tell you it hear and see them chewing, but with my poor parrot I had to sock its food before hand and he could never keep half the food in the mouth long enough to eat all... I agree with @BoelderBeestie cross breeding no good... I understand selective breeding for new colours and tail shapes but not to deform fish
     
  8. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie Active Member

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    @jc16 That's the word I was looking for "selective" breeding, thanks. Edited my post above.
     
  9. MariaS

    MariaS Moderator

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    Not sure which alsation you refering to but the current world sieger has been world sieger for 4 consecutive years:
    VA1 (BSZS & IT 2015) Ballack von der Brucknerallee
    As a matter of interest:

    sieger.jpg sieger 2.jpg

    Be it as it may, all I would like to say is that I am totally against cross breeding especially when animals actually become deformed, be it fish or animal.
    As for inbreeding/selective breeding, it can be just as dangerous as cross breeding if not a breeder does not know the good and bad traits of each bloodline selected.
    As much as you breeding for the specific trait you looking for, remember that every bloodline carrries bad traits too o you are inbreeding on those too.

    For example as you mentioned, the Shepherd ... yes, the desired trait is the slopping back (not arched) however this is achieved by breeding excellent front angulation and hind leg
    As front angulation is much harder to achieve, breeders inbreed on the angulation of the back legs to achieve the topline, ending up with puppies with hocks that hit each other when they run and walk

    I have used the example you mentioned but many other bad traits start coming through... overbites, floppy ears, bad hips, not to mention temperaments
    Some of these are not visible fr the first 5 or 6 months and by then who hs the heart to cull? Besides they have been sold to poor unknowing pet homes who then sit with the problem

    I know I have a bit off track but all i want to get across is that inbreeding/selective breeding can be just as bad if not done responsably
     
  10. Jwh

    Jwh Active Member

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    [​IMG]
    Is this ok, yes/no? Why or why not?
     
  11. Pezulu

    Pezulu Active Member

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    I ask myself whether it is natural or not, and take if from there...
    That German Shepard looks like he is trying to take a dump, while those Neon Danio just don't look natural.
     
  12. Jwh

    Jwh Active Member

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    IMG_2074.JPGSo this would be a no, no
     
  13. Jwh

    Jwh Active Member

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    IMG_2075.JPG
    How about a "batman" ray? This one is a natural birth but apparently they are now being "surgically recreated" (mutilated) for those connoisseurs who have to have something unique
     
  14. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie Active Member

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  15. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie Active Member

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    @Jwh The danios are fine I guess, doesn't seem to alter anything about the fish except the color which we do with selective breeding anyway. I don't know anything about flower horns though, don't the wild ones also have knopkop? They ray is cute and will probably have no problem if that's the only thing wrong with him but should have been a cull. If it was culled no one would have seen it and tried to recreate it surgically. Cutting it like that is just retarded in my book.

    I think commonsense should be the judge when breeding anything.

    On surgery, I would have my arowana's drop eye fixed if there were vets in SA doing it. It does bother him. He can't focus on a piece of food some times and misses the strike, then he points his good eye and takes the food.
     
  16. MariaS

    MariaS Moderator

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    @Jwh, i believe they actually breeding the batman rays which I think is absolutely crazy
    They are the result of a defect during embryonic development of the disc.


    @BoelderBeestie, the dog in question was a competition in the UK, the World Sieger is held in Germany every year and no where else.

    As I said in my post, the sloping back to a certain acceptable amount is correct as per the breed standard but the slope is actually only noticable when the stand the dog to pose for pictures as the one i posted and he has his one back leg stretched out
    If you look carefully at the picture and envisage the leg straight down, you will not notice the slope
    If you also carefully look at the picture of that dog in movement his back has a natural flow with his front leg reaching his nose and the back leg at the centre of his body
    A dog with the extreme incorrect slope which is "cow hocks" like i mentioned, can not do that and when he stands straight on all four legs the slope will be noticeable

    The shepherd is a herding dog that has to endure hours of work herding the sheep
    The above dog will do it, in fact he had to do a 20 km endurance gait with 3 15min stops as one of the requirements to achieve his qualifications

    A dog with cow hocks and exagerated slope can not do it, he will not manage the distance
     
  17. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie Active Member

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    @MariaS I agree with you. Why are the people going nuts and signing petitions over it then? If it's supposed to be like that. The lady said that she went through hell will all the bad publicity around her dog and the dog is probably more healthy than me. I scan read the article back then and got the impression she was in the wrong but after reading it through she did nothing wrong. Probably some snowflake feminist peta people having nothing better to do.
     
  18. MariaS

    MariaS Moderator

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    @BoelderBeestie , the UK is a huge problem with Shepherds.... the politics!!!
    They have not affiliated themselves to the German SV because they dont want to comply to the requierements of the SV not sure if its because it works out expensive or the amount of work involved
    So.. each Kennel club is doing their own thing, some say this is right others say its wrong... The politics are just unbelievable

    'The German SV system requires for showing and breeding: DNA parentage, microchip identification, to meet strict conformational criteria according to the German breed standard, hip and elbow grades requiring X Rays and assessment of the spine along with formal character assessment, endurance test of 20 kilometers gaiting, IPO test of courage, tracking and obedience and a very demanding breed survey (korung).
    'Also, Soundness in mind and body is a crucial part of the German Shepherd breed

    That female is not a top class winner... She does look like her back is a bit roached ie, the centre of her back roaches up and is higher than her withers and croup however its deceiving because she looks as if she is pulling away from the judge's hand and that could cause her to roach as she cant move backwards. I have more of a problem with the fact that she is pulling away from the judge...
    In movement, she throws her back leg out a bit. But in general, that female is not deformed or in pain or any of the big stories they going on about...

    Then again, the quality of the winner is also influenced by the number of animals competing and the overall quality of the entrants. She might have been the best one on the day and then she would win
    If you have 6 animals of average quallity in a class, the winner will be an average animal..
    If you have 150 entries half of which are top class animals, you have a top class animal winning..
     
  19. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie Active Member

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    You know your dogs well. Very interesting.
     
  20. Ortaega

    Ortaega Active Member

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    My opinion:

    Any form of trying to be the creator and supporting of any fish that on purposely is being cross bred is wrong, one can not simply accept one and then try and ignore the rest. It is a simple choice it is either right or wrong.
     
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  21. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie Active Member

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    @Ortaega whats your stance on selective breeding? I think it's fine. If you breed a guppy blue it is still a guppy just a blue one.
     

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