Altum versus Scalare angels, how to distinguish them

As far as the albino angels go I would say they are the same as mine, I would also venture to say that the normal ones are also what was sold under the same name. I see there is a post also saying they come from a discus farm in Israel. This is in line with what the LFS owner told me originally.

 

Hi Eugene,

Yes, I think we are all agreed that these fishes come from Danziger Discus in Isreal. They have closed down their discus operation, but are apparently still breeding these angels. You bought yours as Dantums, which is fair enough, they were not sold as altums as such. However, there is a wholesaler in Johannesburg, this is Duval Exotics, that has on this list "Altum angels, Dantums", "Altum angels albino", "Altums Surniam spotted" (the last of which we have already decided should be Surinam), it is this company that I have the problem with, they are selling these fishes under false pretenses and they are the ones that are causing the confusion. @Dorry Pets on this forum as also selling them as altums, because I think they are buying them from this supplier as well, so they are also responsible for the confusion. I inquired on the Dorry Pets sponsor forum on TASA about this situation, and they have not bothered to respond. Both of these companies need to get their house in order.

I would like to explain some other possible altum x scalare hybrids that occur in nature after this, and I would therefore like to stop this discussion about Dantums here please, they may be man-made altum x scalare, but they are not true altums. They may be nice, but in my opinion they are not a comparison to true altums. If you want true altums, they will be far more pricy and they will also be a lot harder to keep.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

Hi Dirk,don't you think it will be worthwhile doing DNA test on these "Dantum" angels?
Regards
Herve

 

tagging

 

Stunning fish, Eugene!!

 

Hi @Dirk

My Angels is from exactly that place from Isreal....so we agree they are not Altums....but we also agree that they are nice, and that they are def the most wanted types @ the moment, and worth paying the extra R.

Maybe 1 day we will see the Altums in our tanks?

 

Hi guys,

I dont want to go off topic here, but what I wish to address is short and just an amplification of this problem. Hoping to hear some opinions as Im quite irritated by this.

In discus a very similar type of problem exist. Some pairs, especially Snakeskin pairs will often throw fry which are a type of "throwback".
These fish are then what I understand "genotypes" (please correct me if Im wrong @Dirk), and they might resemble some "exotic" type discus. They then get labelled and sold as such. Other breeders (wont name and shame) even give Location based names to their fish such as Tefé to market an otherwise "unknown" and still charge top dollar for it, yet cheaper than what the real deal would be.

This is a serious problem and creates a false image of these fish. At the same time it devalues the "real deal" as imitations are sold for much cheaper, but they are allowed to carry the same name!

How do you address this?

Surely adding "Tefé" to the name, or "Surinam" or whatever they should be from there, not "created" to resemble fish from there.

Or am I splitting hair for no reason?

Regards

Marco

 

Hi Marco,

You are about right, it is exactly what I am getting fed up with, things like "Tefé greens" from Stendker discus, let us call a spade a spade here!

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

I here what you are saying @Marco @Dirk, and when it comes to marketing, people get cought out all the time! When there is something you really want, then you will pay top dollar for it, and if you look @ the tropical fish market, breeders are allways looking for ways to make extra margin and dollar.

If you look @ your example in the Discus scene, they charge extra for these types, and market them as "Tefe", or what ever else? If you look @ the Angel market, these guys in the topic have now created a hooha, as they seem to resemble an highly prized Angel, the Altum, so people are paying the extra dollar for them, as they are being marketed as Altum x Scallare, Dantums etc. and the breeders is pocketing the extra margin and dollar. Same with Bettas, they created the Halfmoon, and suddenly price rocketed from RX to R150 per Betta, but breeding them remains the same, really nothing special, just the end result, and perhaps that the ratio of Halfmoons is only a certain % per spawn, same as these angels and discus.

Never the less, I call this innovation, and it works in any other industry ie food, non foods, pharmaceutical etc. so why not the Fish industry as well? It kind of keeps the things interresting I guess?

But i hear where you are coming from, and I hear your arguement....and understand fully, but if it wasn`t for constant innovation from these breeders, then we will still sit with the common Brown Discus, the normal plain Angel, and the plain old Vail Tail Bettas....so I say cheers for innovation, and cheers to those breeders for keeping our hobby allive arty:

My 2cents

Kindest Regards

 

Hi @HennieRoux

With a large part of what you are saying I agree completely. When it comes to innovation and putting out a product which is "new" and unique, I have no issue with the breeders selling it at top dollar to gain as much from their work as gpthe possibly can. Lets face it, "creating" a new strain or a fish with very specific attributes takes time, effort and money. Good for them if people are willing to buy it.

However, and this is somewhat different. Lots of hobbyists would pay good money for a tank bred Tefé Red Spotted green.
Not many breeders offer these, as its not a strain that breeds true, so you end up with small amts of red spotted fish.
Along comes a breeder who has leopard/red turqoise discus that are not a) spotted enough to be good quality leopards, or b) red turks with broken lines which seem like spots rather than lines.
Instead of now selling these as what they are, the rename them "Tefé Green" and charge top money for them again. Yet these fish have absolutely nothing to do with Tefé, and have no genetic link to fish from there.

To me thats similar to the chinese copying a BMW, which they do anyway, and then instead of selling it as "fongkong", they offer it as a BMW, its just crooked.

These Dantums I have no problem with, as Danziger gave a unique name to it, and as to their genetic make-up one can for now only speculate. Were they to sell them as Danziger Altums it would be a different story though, as they then create an expectation of them being Altum angels.

We can of course argue this forever, but its not going to change anytime soon

Rgds

Marco

 

Yes agreed Marco....

I think the only thing we need to keep in mind, is that most hobbiest dont keep fish to breed, but only for show.

Cheers.

 

The point of this whole matter is if I get sold a product that contains quality x then I expect to have just that. In this case a lot of people will buy angels with the word Altum attached just based on that magic word. No other way to sugar coat it, its just plain wrong. Where the error originates from will always be subject to debate but we, as educated fish keepers, should endeavor not to perpetuate the mistakes. This again highlights the need for forums like TASA and the passionate people that populate it.

 

Yes sure...thanks to all the good guys that keeps us on track...and points out the things that we are not aware of.

 

Hi Guys,

Just as some info - I took the liberty of contacting Shahar at Danziger and asked him to elaborate on the angels they sell as Dantums.
I will quote his reply to me which will shed some light and his own opinion on them

" Regarding the DANTUM - I bought them during the Discus competition on Duisburg Germany as a cross breed of Pterophyllum Scalar and Pterophyllum Altum, one pair produced at only one spawn 20 Albinos and that how the Albino started."

Also -

" I called them that (Dantums) since I can not be sure they have Altum Genes, when I will get my wild Altums spawning and hatching then it will be Danziger Altum..."

So just to clarify - I doubt it was ever Shahar's intention to insinuate that these are Altum, it seems like an Importer/LPS initiative as Dirk suggested

Rgds

Marco

 

Thanks @Marco

 

I actually get giddy at the thought of seeing the results should @Dirk do a fin clipping and DNA samples of these fish....

 

Is there absolutely no one that has altums currently in SA?

 

@PappaBear

I doubt anyone in SA has any Altums at this time. Most of the Altums that sometimes do come into the country suffer and eventually die, with very few people seemingly capable of meeting their requirements. Its the same thing with Wild Discus, though Altums are arguably more demanding than even most Wild Discus, with Heckel maybe their only "equal" in demanding top conditions

 

@Marco

Just shows one how perfect nature was designed, everything managed perfectly! One has to be in awe!!

 

@PappaBear

"designed"?
Mmmmm, lets not start that debate. . .
Its not that perfect from a dinosaurs perspective. . . Hehe

Rgds

Marco