BlackList

Not having man-power to police the law (the BL law in this case) is a world-wide phenomenon, not only a South African thing. So why do other countries get policing their laws right... because of the attitude of the people of the country. In other countries, if it is law, then people do not do it. PERIOD. In South Africa, if it is law, but I know I cannot get caught, or the chances of me getting caught are minimal, then why adhere to the law. This is the attitude that it going to keep South Africa in a 3rd world state. Not because the Police or Governmental agencies aren't doing their jobs properly. PLEASE. Get a broader perspective than your narrow minded attitude.zoom.

are you saying south africa is the only country with crime?
but i do agree with you that this is really a non issue,if its blacklisted its blacklisted and no amount of beating this dead horse on this forum is gonna change that.if you have a grievance take it up with the deat or whoever or go and toi toi in the streets this is africa after all.

 

Guys, lets not do that again. Honestly this BL thing should get buried. Unfortunately we live in a country/world where morality has gone to crap! Fines may or may not work, and bear in mind that the 'fine' system is in place at the moment, but as already said it is badly enforced. However, just to make another point, Rhino's are protected by jail terms and fines that could reach millions just for being in posession of their horns, yet that did had no effect on the gang that killed so many in recent times. Morality again booted sideways for monetory gain. Azurekoi gave us a nice explanation as to why certain species are on the BL. To that I want to add that all indigenous species are BL. Its done because otherwise every Tom Dick and Harry would for instance want to keep a Bushbaby as a pet. Imagine the impact that will have on the environment. As far as imported species are concerned, it will be naive to imagine that this government will make available funds to research them all, forget it, they want new BMW X6's for their wives. Now I might step on some toes, and this is related to people in posession of BL species. That creature is not at fault for being there so dont kill or destroy it. Act responsibly by not breeding them, but at least let them live out their lives in peace. Rgds, Marco

 

i'm sorry bro, but i disagree with you, if the threat of fines or jail time was not there, then everyone would be killing them, this gang just happen to be the one's willing to take the risk of getting caught.

so the fines and jail time do serve a purpose, even tho its not necessarily adequately enforced.

is that gang not now in jail? if they are, then it did have an effect

i also think that these "blacklist" discussions should take place, because it generates awareness about the blacklist.. so many new members to this forum (myself included) never knew or know that a blacklist even existed till it was discussed here.

 

Now see this is the problem with BL threads, it always ends up like this. What I think Larch was trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong larch), which I was also trying to echo is that YES, the threat of fines exist, but no-one ever gets fined and no one police the law to issue these fines. In the light then of human nature, the threat of the fine has disappeared since guilty parties, though maybe aware of the threat of the fine, they are also aware that its not being enforced and police'd, and that makes them thus 'unafraid' of the threat. As far as the Rhino is concerned, sadly, NO, the guilty ones are not in jail, the case was booted from court for lack of evidence as the star witness withdrew his statement. Now the Rhino is threatened and much more 'public' than some shrimp in some river, yet protecting it seems impossible. So yes mdm, fines serve a purpose, yet if no guilty parties EVER get fined, we have to rely on the non-existance of morality. . .its a bleak future. @Oscarfreak, you sorta contradict yourself when you say Zoom is 'narrow minded' when he suggests that SA has a problem with enforcement, and then you close your thread by referring to the way things work -"this is Africa after all". I dont think Zoom was suggesting we are the only place with crime, yet trying to even pretend that Africa does not have a different set of challenges when it comes to these type of things is maybe not narrow minded, but extremely naive. Take the report on Carte Blanche on sunday about the state of wildlife sanctuaries in Zimbabwe. In three years there will be nothing left, not even a Rooibok! Its police'd, and yet typical of Africa it all falls flat the moment it gets to courts. Its sad, rudicolous and a damn shame! Rgds, Marco

 

i hear what you saying, i just dont think that it should absolve us from the responsibility of doing the right thing..

 

firstly,what is really the aim of this thread?do we want discus the ins and outs and why and how we have a blacklist or do we want effect change.if i'm not mistaken a person can buy a permit to keep certain things and there are a lot more dangerous animals living in our homes than a little fish from malawi so things are possible.if your heart is set on a BL species get yourself in gear,write,email,phone start petitioning even toi toi if you have to outside the relevant government departments till someone high up starts listening.i for one would love to see some of those species come off that list and creds to the mods who have been allowing a lot more leniancy towards discussing this issue,maybe we if we talk long enough we might talk each other into action.

 

Hi

Though possible, I'm afraid, as oscarfreak has pointed out this is sort of beating a dead horse. In reality nature and conservation is always moved back due to other issues being regarded as more important. Its so bad worldwide that, and this is all just rumour, but it has been widely rumoured that a freshwater "Sea horse" (cant exactly call it a 'sea horse' if it lives in FW - Oxymoron?) has been discovered. The Naturalist Heiko Bleher, when asked about this refused to comment, and it was then said that it is being kept under raps due to the fact that so little is known of the species and its numbers, that discoverers fear that if it should become known where they originate from, they will be caught and soon become extinct. So really its not only an African thing - but it is a moral thing. Now I can just speculate but I would bet my butt that the 'horse' is from somewhere in the Amazon, and how many of us would not just jump at the oppurtunity of having one - we are all guilty in some small way.

Rgds,

Marco

 

Well you are partly right. The point I was trying to get across is the whole system is broken DEAT, Department of Water Affairs and the Blacklist. This whole system is like a 3 legged dog that tries to hump you leg then falls over.

And you simply can enforce any rules or any type of list when the system designed to enforce it is totally broken. Now I am not saying because the the system is broken its acceptable to break the law. But when you look at the silly list honestly take a good look at it.

Make a list and just see how many fish and plants will honestly survive a day and flourish in our water using a bit of common sense and knowledge. If you have a fisherman buddy they can help because they do know the conditions of our rivers and dams sometimes better then the people who are supposedly running them.

Now supposedly we have a DEAT member on this forum, he/she has a golden opportunity to come forward and educate us and answer our questions and make an actual difference. But instead its cloak and dagger games, surely he/she would surely know of all the blacklist thread and all of the questions we have. So why not come forward? Wont that be more productive than skulking around the forum?

And finally a single responsible fishkeeper who has one or two blacklisted species in his tank is not the threat here. It is the breeders/retailers that sell these to the amateur fishkeeper who does not know how to handle this fish or plants and then decide to flush it or go dump it in the local river or dam.

If I could make a simple analogy its like the drug trade by removing a drug dealer you do nothing because he just gets replaced soon enough by someone else, but if you find the person who makes the drugs and shut him down you break the chain right there.

Unfortunately due to the stuff I mentioned in my first post proper enforcement wont be possible and as long as the system is broken the the rules will be broken too. Maybe someday someone will catch a wake up and see that the wheels on the car has come off a long time ago.

 

Hi Larch,

What you have to bear in mind is that no DEAT member will be able to tell you exactly why all those species are on the list, impossible. Some of these species get put on the list by the country of origin, by their department of Nature or whoever, and "being able to survive in our water" is not the only criteria for this. Some of these species are protected due to low numbers or due to the impact removing them from the wild has on that specific ecology. Many of these species will not survive here, you are right. But allowing people to import them will have an effect on their survival in the wild. It is for instance Illegal to import Ivory into many countries. Is has nothing to do with the ivory, its all about protecting the species in its natural environment. I also have to disagree with your approach to Policing this. Your drug example - would it not be much easier to get people to a stage where we do not buy drugs - then dealer and top guy will stop - as there are no buyers. Its cheaper changing attitudes, and a moral responsibility for each individual to do, unfortunately you and I can debate till pigs fly and still people will shoot rhino and elephant, keep Blacklisted species and buy drugs. Thats just what people are. Rgds, Marco

 

Maybe using the drug dealer analogy was a bad example, but having said most blacklisted species are getting sold to amateur fishkeepers who then join the website an only after posting pictures or talking about it find out they are keeping a blacklisted species and then only find out about the much talked about blacklist. Maybe petshop owners know they are blacklisted maybe they dont my money is they dont because they aren't getting informed by DEAT. I have been checking out the The South African Pet Traders Association website: http://www.sapettraders.co.za/ they have courses on everything accept anything blacklisted related which is rather mind boggling if you consider just how much tropical fish make up of a average petshop.

Yes and I agree changing attitude and taking moral responsibility is all fine and well, but at what point do we stop doing the governments job for them? We pay them taxes which they are suppose to use for resources to combat issues like imported blacklisted species. Would giving petshops material regarding blacklisted species be that hard? Would it be too much to ask having the government print some pamphlets and giving it to lps owners who intern spread it to customers?

 

I am sorry but i believe this to be total and utter Bull****** Not having man-power to police the law (the BL law in this case) is a world-wide phenomenon. How many million people are there in africa alone that are unemployed? Why is it the Lets say "Officials" get payed millions a year, then have 4, 5 million rand parties at the tax payers expense, drive very expensive luxury cars? My Opinion is that if rather IF expenses are cutdown, these guys are payed lets say 20% less and we adopt a no party attitude, Budgets for cars are topped at R500 000 (and you do get some very nice cars in this price range) then I am pretty sure that there would be millions available for more man power, oh wow look at that, instant funds and job creation. Pity we are all only citizens of a so called government

 

In accordance with act 10 of 2004 there is a R100 000 fine and/or 10 years in prison for non-compliance with biodivirsity act

 

Ok Henk Parana's being sold at a pet shop in the south of JHB someone can give me info of the people that need to do something and I will report it...

 

Most likely nothing will happen even if you report it, that or every petshop owner in South Africa will be in jail for 10 years and pay a R100 000 which has not happened yet. Because I have yet to find a pet shop that does not sell some sort of blacklisted species with any ramifications.

 

I will contact them tomorrow and let's see what happens.

My problem with long discussions of the blacklist on this forum is everyone of us is against stock sold of the bl and get into trouble for talking about animals on the list yet nothing happens about it

 

Catch 22 no one is willing to report the petshops because no shop will survive having to pay a fine like that which means 99.9% of LPS will have to close and were will we buy fish from then?

 

If more LPS shops close down because of their negligence, I believe this will produce a much better attitude and care with fish for the few that do stay in business.

It will rattle the industry a bit. Something that is needed.

 

Recently, a certain lfs shop owner, in the northern subs. of Cape Town closed his doors.
One reason: he was caught with Bl species in his shipment, as he collected it from the airport.
His whole shipment was confiscated, including the marines and a R30 000 fine.
Being in an industrial area, in the last tough months, he could not recover from that blow.
I have met the Cape Nature official, at his premises, that became friends with him, at his lfs, on at least 2 occasions.
He eventually tipped off the custom officials...
Well, that was the story out of the horse's own mouth!

 

If this is the situation then I think the nature conservation guys need to educate the lps... I don't want the store in the south to close, imfact I don't want any store to close. I am just tire of this constant argument of the same topic ad the same people with the same comments.
I am in the process of watching another industry that I love, die and am trying to help out there, last thing want is the same thing here.

Does anyone else agree that education or lack there off is the problem?