Breeding discus

Tks Mattie

Was recommended by Marco to crank up the temp to 30-31?

Maybe Marco can comment here please.

Still no eggs.

Patience................

 

Hi pHish_man,

Like I said earlier, the best man on the site and perhaps in the world would be Heiko Bleher.
He has been studing Discus in the wild for 30 years plus.
Recorded water temperatures in the wild drops as low as 23C.
Their spawning window falls in the rainy season when cooler water from the mountains floods the lowlands.
Even Jack Wattley recomends temperatures in the 27-28 range.
Do some research on Heiko's website or check some of my previous post where I post links to them.
Regards

 

Tks mattie, what you say about the temp drop makes sense.

Will check out Heiko Bleher website

Andrew

 

Hi phish_man,

This whole temperature thing has been addressed numermous times and I think if you do some searching on the forum you will find lots of info on that.
Lets just keep in mind that what you are dealing with here is DOMESTIC, TANK BRED discus. Why does that make a difference? Well simly because they are probably in excess of 30 generations away from their wild ancestors, and just as they have adapted to a new set of parameters (they are not nearly as unforgiving as wild specimens would be regarding ph and hardness) the same would be for temperature. Wild greens and your discus are worlds apart!

What does that mean? It means that I doubt temperature would make a difference between them spawning or not. Its the change in temperature and clean water that comes with w/c that induces spawning. My tank is kept at 30'C. To induce spawning I can either do a w/c with cooler water or drop the heater temp to 28 and then back slowly to get them to spawn. I am however sure that if I was to start at 32 and drop to 30'C the same result would occur. So, to a lesser degree the starting temp is not the key, its the drop and slowly back up that induces spawning.

@mattie

I have also read many of Bleher's comments and articles, and yes, he is the ABSOLUTE authority on wild discus! But he has never bred discus as far as I know. I'm sure you would agree that what applies to Wild fish is not nescessarily applicable to tank bred's.

 

+1 Rep power 2 Marco. Had a previous argument with a member regarding the wild and captive bred differences on fish. Have a look here TM.

 

(To induce spawning I can either do a w/c with cooler water or drop the heater temp to 28 and then back slowly to get them to spawn. I am however sure that if I was to start at 32 and drop to 30'C the same result would occur. So, to a lesser degree the starting temp is not the key, its the drop and slowly back up that induces spawning.) posted by Marco

Marco, at what rate do you increase the temp back up to 30 after dropping to 28 with the water change?

I have just done a 20% water change and the one disus started shaking its dorsal and caudal fin like crazy

Andrew

 

That is a good sign. A gret deal of shaking preceeds spawning. There are of course other reasons for them shaking like that, but lets suppose here we are dealing with pre-spawn behaviour.

When I did it that way I normally did it after the eggs were laid, at the rate the heater would increase it at. You have to find your pair's trigger, get to know them and improve on your ability to provide it. It really is a broadstroke thing, and differ from pair to pair. I wouldnt want my fish below 28'C for too long so thats another consideration. If this doesnt help, try extending the period to your next water change by 3 days. That should put you on 10 days. Vary feeding, (time and quantity) in this time and on day 10 do a 30 to 40% change. Its just a matter of finding that trigger!

 

Ok I will keep observing and try find that trigger.

There is so much written all over the net it gets quite confusing so getting advice direct from someone who has bred them is appreciated.

How long can a fish retain her eggs for? Does she keep producing them even if she is not spawning?

 

Not sure...as far as I know the eggs are constantly regenerated. Old ones are absorbed in the body and new ones produced. I might be completely wrong though.

As far as the net is concerned - yes it is contradictory. I would partly say it is so because of peoples differing experience. Not all pairs are alike, thats the main thing here. I have 1 pair that I can basically decide when to spawn, thats how easy they are, and yet another pair do so whenever they wish, no matter water temp, w/c or anything I do.

Mattie has also bred discus, he has just experienced it different to me, to Dirk etc, and vice versa. Its a learning curve and you have to keep at it to get them going, to find and figure out what makes your female tick...

 

Pretty much like any female.......

mind sharing what strains of discus you are breeding?

andrew

 

Hi.

At present only Brilliant turq and Snakeskins. Soon I hope to add blue diamonds, they spawned last week but I have now seperated them, and also a Royal blue type with the prominent Heckel bar which spawned 2 weeks ago, but have also now been seperated. Thats the lot. What have you got?

 

Hi Marco

I have 4 adult fish that i bought off gumtree ( wont make that mistake again, but we learn hey?) that im not too sure of the strains. The one is a Marlboro Red, 2 have a bright blue body with red patterns thru and one is blue with red patterning but the red seems to be the dominant colour.

Then I have a mix of 11 young ones that I bought all at about 5cm and am growing them out, feeding about 6 times a day and doing the 50% water change per day.

The mix of the young ones are: 1 blue diamond, 1 marlboro red, 1 pigeon blood, 1 alenquer red, 3 blue turquoise and 4 royal blues.

Just an observation the blue turquoise are by far the quicker growers. I have split the fish into 2 tanks based on size, but the one b.t is rocketing in growth rate. The royal blues and blue diamond are lagging way behind and all fish are getting equal treatment. Heard the blue diamonds are slow growers tho......is this true?

Andrew

 

@pHish_man

I would consider the following - Males, in my experience grow slower than females up to about 10cm. Then females seem to slow down and males overtake. Most info though suggest the opposite, but for me it has always worked out that way. Another influence is the age and 'purity' of the strain. Turquoise discus is now an old and steady strain. They have good blood and tend to be tough fish. Maybe thats why they grow fast. Blue diamonds...lets not get into that. I love them and hate the fact that I do! They grow slow and tend to be problematic. Pigeon's (marlboro red) are tough, fast growing. Snakeskins seem to be even faster! I bought a number of fish about a year ago, among them 6 snakes. They grew faster, spawned faster and in general seem tougher than the others. From what I read Snow white's and Golden strains are also problematic, something I struggle to understand as both strains originate from Brown discus, and Browns are 'easy - no - fuss' Discus.

I guess it has a great deal to do with who the breeder etc. of the fish are.

 

Marco and Mattie

Another quick question. It seems the one discus which i am assuming to be the female, has never displayed any sort of black bar marking at all. From what I can see she is very similar in colouration to a red turquiose. Does this strain exhibit the traditional stress bars? Read that these fish need the bars to signal emotion to their mate. How critical is this?

Andrew

 

Ag nee @pHish_man, dis sommer 'n klomp internet snert! Stress bars (what they are called) has been somewhat researched but nothing conclusive has ever been established. It forms part of camouflage in the wild, and it does have significance in hierarchy structure.(a dominant fish will not exhibit bars to a less dominant fish) But for breeding - No! Blue diamonds, pigeons, Albino and other strains have NO bars and still they are bred succesfully, so do not worry about that. As far as your fish is concerned, I have no idea what strain it is, need a pic to try and ID.

No spawn yet?

Rgds

Marco

 

No spawn

Did another 20% water change today and temp running at 28C.

Maybe I should add some candles and soft music!!!

Pls pm me a direct email address and I can forward photos of the fish onto you for ID. Dont know how to add them here.

Andrew

 

Hi, I am jumping in from no where @Marco "Golden strains are also problematic, something I struggle to understand as both strains originate from Brown discus"

Interesting, I have two goldens, and not once have I had problems with them. Maybe I should not say this now. They grow like crazy, almost a side plate size and I got them the size of 'n piering 6 months ago.

 

Hi @Laracroft,

Depends on what Golden you have. Could be GOOD stock, or a cross. Dont get me wrong, they not bad strains, just weaker and do not handle meds, transport and stress well. Also have some internal issues. True goldens have 'white' stress bars and thus not visible.

Interestingly, I read an article by a asian breeder who suffered huge losses in his hatchery due to 'discus plague'. He stated that the first strains to die (within a day or twn after first sign of infection) were the more refined strains (eruptions, golden's, blue diamonds) and the ones with the highest survival rate were Pigeon strains. Snakeskins also had good survival rate and was second to Pigeon blood's. So, refined breeding comes at a price...

 

A discus walks in to a bar....

Note Golden is not just a colour as listed ..it may exhibit, pale orange, peach, creamy, white-lilac...as the recognised strain "GOLDEN"
This is for the NON-PigeonBlood Golden.
Non Gost-based Golden
Nor to the White Diamond Based yellow-golden fish.

So when @Laracroft says her Goldens are growing fast, it may be a colour description, not strain identification.
If I remember correctly, your discus were not Identified to strain level..hence possible ID confusion...

The Golden , derived from Browns, are quite tough, especially those ACTUAL INTERMEDIATES, which look just like most Brown(hardly available in SA anyway), with a pale, almost metallic, lilac cast on the front half, and a "DIFFERENT" bright nearly Maroon-red to Burgundy eye colour.

It is those fish which are selectively bred to lose visible stressbars.
They are then graded according to how little/no Facial Bar is present.
That is for show grading...OBVIOUSLY fish with facial Bar can and will produce Young without, and some with Facial Bar.

Refinement @Marco , probably means clearer, cleaner less marked fish?
In that case, the intial fish in the strain development(which is still being done with new breeders trying to get IN on the market trend) are seelected and inbred to exhibit the characteristics aimed for..
Sometimes they have too FEW fish to breed with and the breeding line becomes very limited, and any weaknesses inherent can affect fish health.

True Gold(brown-derived), are s more deilicately buil fish, not very stocky, and exude a feminine, genteel way about them .
To an extent where they are hesitant at feeding times , and can be bullied, and then regress, get ill, or even die..as Discus sometimes do.

They are better with smaller fish, less robust individuals, and generally low-stress environments as you grow them into Adolescent, or young adulthood.

It's all about the breeder's intent, and ideals in his mind for the fish.

The FLIMSIER Golden Strains , just require smaller feeds, and smaller regular waterchanges.
It seems they have difficualty adapting, and the protocal above helps them fit in more readily.

My own experience and of those fish I have sold on to hobbyists, together with my good Asian friends who supply me...are that the Golden Discus are remarkable stronger ~80mm onwards..By then, they are receiving more appreciation and are less WORK intensive!

Note on stress bars: You get normal, coloured dark bar, reduced colouration, Absence of bars (voluntarily as adults, in strains that possess bars", Inverse or reverse Bars( like a pale absence of colour where bar is meant, White Bars, Barless
Young barred fish, almost always exhibit them, not just as camouflage, but alos due to not having control over using them to communicate mood , status and health....so they are always"ON", until they exert and learn control.

@Marco, Pigeons can show stressbars, albeit not in ALL of them, and ometimes it's finely fragmented, yet discernible.

I described those scenarios I know of..and very hastily while I rush out to get my car sorted out!:blink1:

@pHish_man I dunno if this helps you with breeding cues directly, but behavioural characteristics and visual clues do assist in no small part.

Chat later!

 

Thanx @Altum.

Good reading and very descriptive! Always nice reading and learning new stuff from you.
I've never seen the Stress bars in Pigeon's, except the peppering. (and I'm sure you are not referring to that) I immediately assume that those bars are present in negative form in those PB's?

I use to make conclusion's (based on reports, not experience) that fish regarded as 'weaker' strains tend to always be on the lighter end of scale (white, golden etc) and also these fish do not possess the same ability to darken like other strains do. I have often wondered if it really is a 'weaker' strain, or the lack of warning signs from the fish (inability to darken) that thus leads to late intervention by aquarists and consequently death, and this then allows for these strains being percieved as weak. Any comment Altum?