Discus fish

Discussion in 'RSS Feeds' started by Sagren, Oct 3, 2019.

Voter count: 0
?

Hi im new to the group. My name is nivashini and i have discus fry. I have 10 of them they are 4 mon

  1. Assistance

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Help

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Reedfish

    Reedfish Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2011
    Messages:
    10,221
    Likes Received:
    980
    Location:
    UK
    That sounds similar to the dose I used - if it is the same strength.
    When I used it, I did the water change after 3 days. But then treated a second time for another 3 days
     
  2. Guest




  3. MariaS

    MariaS Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2015
    Messages:
    6,821
    Likes Received:
    1,990
    Location:
    Klipriver, Midvaal

    @BoelderBeestie , That's awesome, what did you treat with in the end?
     
    top dog likes this.
  4. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,252
    Likes Received:
    984
    Location:
    Cape Town
    Believe it or not but with nothing. I did what nature does. I dragged my pH down to 3.6 and brought it back up when the flagellates was gone, it took around 3 weeks. It doesn't kill the flagellates but they can't reproduce so eventually die off. 100% success rate with everyone I guided that followed my instruction.
     
    MariaS, top dog and T. Guppy like this.
  5. Marco

    Marco Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    253
    Location:
    Waverley Pretoria
    Hi @BoelderBeestie,

    I would urge caution when making statements like this about ph. It is not only unscientific, but also proposes that lowering ph levels to extremely low levels can be done almost willy nilly, and that is actually far from the truth.

    Fish maintain a delicate internal balance, and by lowering the ph it does not affect the internal bilogical balance. In other words, if the ph of water is lowered, it does not have an equal effect on the intestinal ph of the fish. So, it has no effect on the environment and reproduction of flagellates.
    Randomly lowering ph will only destabilize bacterial count in the water, and quite possibly cause osmotic shock to the fish.

    One must be careful not to confuse correlation with causation
    What is the cause of flagellates? This can depend on a variety of things, but most often, if not a stubborn strain in chemically damaged fish, its caused by environmental factors such as low temperature, higher than desired organic levels in the water column, poor feeding or unkept or inadequate filtration.

    What most often then happens is husbandry is jacked up first and foremost, and this is usually enough, but as paranoid fishkeepers we then tend to throw our full arsenal at the perceived problem.
    When the issue clears up we attribute the remedy to the number of steps taken, when in fact it was simple tank maintenance and improved fishkeeping that cleared up the problem.

    I can only see people jumping to ways of lowering ph in their tanks, and I would certainly advise against this.

    Best regards

    Marco

    Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
    MariaS and Reedfish like this.
  6. Reedfish

    Reedfish Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2011
    Messages:
    10,221
    Likes Received:
    980
    Location:
    UK
    I think it is dangerous to play with the ph too much.
    I have heard of a recent case of someone who lost a fantastic collection of fancy Plecs when he dropped the ph too low.
     
  7. MariaS

    MariaS Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2015
    Messages:
    6,821
    Likes Received:
    1,990
    Location:
    Klipriver, Midvaal
    Yew... that is amazing but as you say.. nature has its own ways

    I must say I would be very reluctant to lower the PH down to that level.
    Im not sure if all fish could handle that and im sure my rays would not make it but if it worked for you thats great
     
  8. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,252
    Likes Received:
    984
    Location:
    Cape Town
    Nothing was done randomly and was monitored closely with the correct instruments. My systems are running clean and efficient and the water was free of any pollutants or unwanted chemicals. I pulled the pH down with ion exchange that occurs during nitrification. The conductivity was low enough and the buffer was removed to achieve this. This is actually one of Jack Wattley's methods. He used acid to achieve this, I took a different approach without acids but with similar results.

    This process also takes weeks to achieve so there is no osmotic shock to the fish.

    Your advice back then was to nuke them with PP, prazi and metro. All at heavy doses for long periods of time with no results. After my 3rd fish lost I decided to go a different route, the way nature does it.

    I also never advise people to lower pH levels without me guiding them through the whole process in every detail over the phone. Maria just asked what I did.

    It works, 100% success rate with 4 different people with fish near death, paper thin with white feces everywhere. All fish from that first batch from Hudson. He gave them a quick metro treatment before shipping them to us. That's why he kept them back a week and the feces where pitch black when they landed. a Few days after landing and it flared up again, this time drug resistant.

    But anyway....when are you getting discus again? The discus fever will come back, just wait for it.:lol:
     
  9. Marco

    Marco Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    253
    Location:
    Waverley Pretoria
    @BoelderBeestie,

    Lets just back up a little and not get ahead of the discussion by using anecdotal evidence to substantiate scientific claims.

    I raised my concerns not as an attack on you so there is no need to be defensive with regards to instruments, systems or whatever.

    The scientific reality remains the same. A low ph has zero impact (apart from acting as an unnescessary stressor on kidneys and other organs) on what happens in the intestine of the fish
    There is no way around this. Not even Jack Wattley, Aquaman or the Dalai Lama can make claims to the contrary.
    So with that in mind it becomes a complete "non-discussion" on that part of the topic.
    Flagellates live and proliferate inside the small intestine of the fish, and although some will pass into the water column, it is irrelevant to their proliferation.

    Now, saying that i suggested "nuking" them makes me uncomfortable. But that could just be me being uncomfortable with the term "nuke"

    To treat Wild caught Discus with Potassium Permangenate (PP), Praziquantal and Metronidazole, in correct dosages hardly constitutes "nuking" them. Its pretty standard procedure.

    Post such a treatment the recurring parasitic load has now not become "chemically resistant". If that was the case there would not be a single mode of antiparasitic medicine left for us humans to use after almost 100 years of us using it.
    However, if the stressor remain which led to the initial flare up, then the symptoms will return. That does not render the chemical useless though.

    I experimented with different water mixes, and without the use of any chemicals managed to get the wild discus to eat and poop perfectly normal, quite literally from 1 water change to the next.

    As to water turning into lemon juice via denitrification. Yeh I dont buy that. But I concede I am not a chemist.
    I do however know enough about the chemical procedure to realise that one would need to not do water changes for sufficient hydrogen ion build-up to occur. This is not under control so can take very very long, and eventually nitrate build up results in negative living condition, so again this is counter productive. But anyway, this is a whole different discussion which I dont want to get into.

    When am I getting into discus again?
    When everyone else is getting out
    I mean that as a joke, and also not.
    I have a few targets to meet with Rams and once that is done, I will get back.
    But most probably very quietly.....



    Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
     
  10. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,252
    Likes Received:
    984
    Location:
    Cape Town
    Also just debating and not taking anything personally so no stress about that. I haven't had a good debate in ages.:lol:

    Not if your filter is big enough and water devoid of calcium bicarbonate or carbonate.

    and on flagellate protozoa, here's extracts from studies.

    While protozoan abundance was high and specific grazing
    rates were not limited by low pH, site-specific protozoan
    abundance and community growth rate were depressed
    under acidic conditions. This suggests that low pH stresses
    the protozoa, resulting in reduced fecundity. Energy budget
    studies have shown that the major energy sink for protozoa
    is production of macromolecules, which is directly coupled
    to growth and reproduction (25, 27). Only a small fraction of
    protozoan energy is spent on mechanical, electrical, and
    osmotic work. Under pH stress, energy is diverted to
    mechanical and osmotic work.

    and

    As a result, protozoans continually
    pump water out via contractile vacuoles to compensate for
    osmotic water gain (25); low pH increases protozoan cell
    membrane permeability (19, 23, 31) and, therefore, raises the
    energetic cost of iono-osmoregulation for protozoa in acidified systems. Given all of the data, we can hypothesize that
    under acid stress in disturbed lake sediments (pH c 5),
    higher maintenance costs probably cause reduced community growth rates (despite equal or greater grazing), resulting
    in the observed lower abundance at the most acid site.

    Discus has a very short digestive system so water does pass through them easily.

    Yip, that's the spirit.....or the discus fever flaring up again.:thumbup: Lets see how long you last without flatties:lol:.
     
  11. Marco

    Marco Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    253
    Location:
    Waverley Pretoria
    Hi Wes,

    Ok, so theres a few misconceptions tied up in here and from that the confusion.

    I will start with the quoted piece on protozoa. It is not applicable. Lake sediment environment and intestinal environment is not the same thing. It has absolutely no bearing on each other. I will show why.

    As for the size of the filter being a determining factor. Nope, its all about bio load.
    Filters ALL do the same thing
    They convert ammonia to nitrate. The bigger or more effective the filter, the faster and more effectively this is done.
    Ph fluctuations due to the nitrogen cycle will impact slowly, and dilution of H+ ions via water changes will more or less keep this in balance, just like nitrate levels.

    I have done this experiment countless times and I simply maintain, you dont go from pure water to lime juice by adding an aquarium filter. Its simply impossible.
    My counter argument has always been, at what stage will the ph drop stop? Will it turn into ph 1 (Hydrochloric acid) if left long enough? Ph 2?
    Its nonsense, I simply dont buy it.

    You can try it with containers of rain water and catappa leaves. Add aeration and a simple sponge filter to drive out CO2 and handle the bio cycle as would happen in a fish tank. Weeks later its still no lower than ph4. Who is going to neglect their tank in the same way


    Now to the water ph 3 level impacting the flagellate inside the gut.
    Freshwater fish do not drink water
    Very very little water makes it into the body of the fish via the mouth.
    Saltwater fish drink water
    So, how will the low ph water reach the intestine?

    On top of that, even if water was swallowed, it would enter a stomach which secretes hydrochloric acid for food digestion. That has a ph of 1. The water with a ph of 3 would have nothing on the stomach acid.

    So I maintain, the suggestion of reducing water ph to very low levels does nothing but put stress on the fish. At ph levels under 4 enough mucous is excreted by the fish that the gills can get mucous drenched, and they can lose the ability to breath properly.
    This is not a positive or sound course of action and I'd strongly advise against it.

    There is always lots of debating and "street cred" fighting involved in the discus hobby. I really, really dont know why always Discus.

    It is one of the big reasons why I took my leave from the Discus hobby, and why I jokingly say I will get back into it quietly.
    I imagine there are some who would also want me to do so quietly, or not at all.

    Have a leke day




    Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
     
  12. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,252
    Likes Received:
    984
    Location:
    Cape Town
    What you are saying about all these things are true yes and I agree but we are misunderstanding each other because I'm not explaining myself well enough.

    The acidic water doesn't kill them inside the fish, it stops them from reproducing and spreading. They reproduce via cysts that's excreted by the fish. The cysts then gets picked up by a fish while feeding and the whole cycle gets repeated. The low pH took care of another flare up by taking care of the cysts. The binary division was taken care of by the immune system by us keeping the fish in optimum conditions. So it's a combination of good clean husbandry and harsh conditions in the same moment. The good husbandry alone didn't sort out the hex either and the meds did nothing.

    The piece on protozoa has bearing on the discussion, they are all built the same with an exo and endoplasm membrane that surrounds a nucleus and reproduce in the same manner. The piece demonstrates that alkalinity and acidity does affect them. Some are more adapted to a certain environment but under pH4 and most of them start having trouble. Luckily for us these ones did.

    These wilds can go down low without problems. My system bottomed out at 3.61. I couldn't get it lower. Tds was at 15. I feed bird meat/fruits, and high quality bs pellets and other things so that's what fed the bio filter to nitrify so rapidly. No3 was kept under 15ppm at all times with RO wc's. The RO wc does bump the pH a little for a short while but it's negligible, that will depend on your source water mineral content, mine has almost nothing to begin with so my product water is very clean from my RO system.

    No one believes me hey. I demonstrated it live on my group the one time, only then was I believed.

    It worked 5 times in a row counting me and I showed how I do it, that must mean something in the terms of proof.
     
  13. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,252
    Likes Received:
    984
    Location:
    Cape Town
    @Marco , you are "misanthroping" wrong. Who cares what other people do, why would you let other people ruin something you like, they aren't that important to even have their existence acknowledged. Screw them man.:thumbup:
     
  14. Marco

    Marco Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    253
    Location:
    Waverley Pretoria
    Hi Wes,

    I dont think we are saying the same thing.
    I am not so sure it is that you are not explaining yourself well enough, but rather that you simply want to stick to the initial claim, no matter what.

    Earlier you specifically said, and I quote - "Discus has a very short digestive system so water does pass through them easily."

    This was in suggestion that low ph water will rid the fish of gut flagellates.
    But water does not pass the gut, and even if it did, it would pass a stomach with a ph level 100 x more acidic.
    This is the whole point of difference leading to the debate.

    Now you have moved on to the low ph killing cysts. This is not possible either. Even fish eggs are ph resistant, and parasitic cysts are even more so. When the German breeders attempted to raise parasite free fish, they realised with great heartache just how difficult it was to destroy Flagellate cysts. Even leaving tanks and equipment dry for weeks, PP treatments and Bleach treatments failed.
    Higher than normal levels of Sodium Hypochloride is needed to oxidize the cysts.

    The information you quoted refers to lower mobility, high energy expenditure and reduced proliferation of the said protozoa used in the test, in the low ph environment. But Hex/Spironucleus flagellates reproduce inside the gut, you eluded to this yourself, so the amount of cyst reproduction will remain unchanged, and hatching will remain unchanged. Binary fission will only be handled by a healthy gut system, and you started the thread saying the fish had an unhealthy gut system.
    So lots of negative feedback loops in this argument, and lots of hypothetical assumptions and 'maybe' s'.

    Simply applying Occams razor here, and then the most simple solution - that improved attention given, resulting in improved living conditions sorted out the problem is more plausible.

    I also dont think these fish had a flagellate issue in anyway. I think they had a bacterial infection similar to what we experience as a gut infection. Improved living conditions and a strong immune system then sorted it out.

    Surely you must be able to see the flawed logic by proposing that its "the way nature does it" , and then describe how wild caught fish from the Amazon needed this treatment. Surely, if that was the way nature handled it, wild discus will be free from these parasites?

    I dont really want to get into the water discussion, but we are halfway down the rabbit hole anyway...

    RO water, by all intents and purposes is a constant. Of course it ends up not being because of differing water filter quality, membrane quality and age etc etc

    But source water has no bearing on ultimate RO water. You can use sea water and still produce RO water, and all things being equal, the water will be of exact parameters to Ro water using a different source water. The only difference is the filters and membrane will have a shorter usable lifespan the worse the source water gets.
    Thats the first thing I want to clear up

    Now with regards to filtration and acidity -

    As you have said, a biological filter will, over time tend to drive the ph of water down if no buffering is provided.
    However, as you have said, in RO water there is no buffering, so over time the ph will drop in slow increments. (its all carbon related and happens very slowly)
    But, we do water changes. And when a water change is done, the accumulated Hydrogen ions which is lowering the ph is diluted, and so the ph will rise again, until more hydrogen ions are accumulated.
    So, the water change now acts as the "buffering system"

    So against that backdrop here is my take on it
    Discus, especially Wild Caughts do not do well in high nitrate levels. For the ph of water to drop drastically the hydrogen would need to accumulate quite extensively.
    To be precise, RO water has a ph of neutral 7, although that is an optimal system. I will be kind and say it has a ph of 6.7
    To drop to 5.7 it has to have 10 x more hydrogen ions.
    To drop to 4.7 it has to have 100 x more hydrogen ions
    To drop to 3.7 it has to have 1000 x the hydrogen ions it started out with at 6.7

    Now, assuming normal tank maintenance is done, each water change will reduce H+ ion build up, and each water change will remove the organics contributing to the lowering of ph (your carbon source)

    Sure, it will still lower over time as the build up is higher than removal. But 3 weeks, from 6.7 to 3.7 - I categorically contest it.
    You will possibly refer to instrument readings, and I will point out that the meters rely on conductivity for measurement, and therefore in low tds water they are all notoriously inaccurate. Even the Milwaukee ones.
    One has to allow for a certain % of meter inaccuracy and when thats done we are at a different ph value and it just becomes a hazy inexact concept.

    Ive had this ph discussion many times over and eventually it falls flat at 1 question - at which level will the ph stop dropping?
    By the suggestion of reduced ph to levels of 3.5 via denitrification, I simply ask, so what about under 3. If no water change is done, surely more and more H+ions are accumulating, and if no water change is done, then the ph must just keep falling
    Will I eventually, in 6 weeks have a bath of hydrochloric acid with a ph of 1?
    The answer is no

    The lowest natural occurring ph level where fish live is somewhere in Asia I think. It is in an old inactive volcano and because of the seeping hydrogen it lowers the ph of the lake to approx 3.5-3.8
    There are fish and organisms adapted to live there, but in reality, other fish wont make it.
    Take note though that volcanic hydrogen is needed to lower the water of said lake.

    Can you see why I simply do not buy that a simple biological filter can do the same?

    Anyway, i have now typed an hour of my day away.
    There will always be a difference of opinion on many matters, and that is fine and its good and progressive. We can not debate facts though, and I hope and trust that you distinguish between the two, and find solutions that appeal and align with your opinions.

    Best regards


    Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
     
  15. Marco

    Marco Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    253
    Location:
    Waverley Pretoria
    Yeh, to a degree. With Rams I find its not the same. Actually with most fish it aint.
    Its just always Discus
    And know full well, I am as bad as the next guy
    I think it starts out with incorrect definitions.
    People for instance label a Discus "Good quality Discus" and yet the very definition of "Good quality Discus" is not understood.
    Address that and you are down the rabbit hole of eternal damnation because suddenly you are elitist, snobbish or downrigh rude.
    And so, in the interest of civility truth is lost. I guess its in line with our emotionally sensitive era where "taking offence" constitutes an honourable position.

    But dont be fooled for a minute, its like this all over the world. I mean we have the likes of Heiko Bleher and his buddys spreading lies and making scientifically incorrect statements to maintain their "hero status", so its all over the place, in the Discus community

    Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
     
  16. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,252
    Likes Received:
    984
    Location:
    Cape Town
    Yip, agree 100%, I just wave at them as they pass by now.
     
    David Kusner likes this.
  17. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,252
    Likes Received:
    984
    Location:
    Cape Town
    Yes, we don't know what it was in the end, just glad it's gone. Lets call it Hudson syndrome:lol:
     
  18. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,252
    Likes Received:
    984
    Location:
    Cape Town
    On the pH, the less buffer the touchier the water is up and down.

    When the potential of hydrogen is reached.

    I had a few very detailed chemistry lectures from you know who. I can set my pH to what ever I want within days with just nitrification. The weird thing is everyone becomes hostile towards it when I talk about it, it's basic chemistry, nothing fancy. I'll keep it to myself from now on seems to be the best solution.

    There's another thread somewhere where I also say it doesn't kill them, can't remember which one though, but water does enter the fish is the point I was trying to make, but this discussion is being turned into semantics now so I'll take my leave. Most important thing is our fish are alive after all and we still don't know what it was.


    @Sagren

    Short answer, Spirohexol from JBL.
     
  19. Marco

    Marco Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    253
    Location:
    Waverley Pretoria
    Lol no Wes its not semantics

    Water enters the fish yes - Via osmoregulation. By no stretch of any semantic-salad does that equate to low ph water passing through the gut to rid the fish of flagellate organisms.

    The crux is you made a very dangerous, unscientific statement and now wish to argue it away by saying its down to semantics.
    It simply isnt

    As for basic chemistry, you are again avoiding specifics - but then categorically propose that you, after a few discussions on chemistry, can reduce the ph of fishtank water to the same level of the most acidic lake (that has living fish) in the entire world, by nothing more than a bioligical filter.

    As you say, best to just wave them by

    Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
     
  20. T. Guppy

    T. Guppy

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2019
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    172
    Location:
    Johannesburg
    Sorry to get in the middle, but @Sagren did you sort out you discuses? (is that the correct plural for them?)
     
  21. BoelderBeestie

    BoelderBeestie

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,252
    Likes Received:
    984
    Location:
    Cape Town
    Yes I can, take RO water in a glass, measure the pH. It will sit at just under 7 like you said, then stir it with your hand and take another reading. The pH will drop because of the little sweat on your hand alone. The less minerals the water has the easier the pH moves so the less you need to take it up or down. Now take another glass and put one crumb of bicarb in it, it will sit above 8.

    You soften the tank water with RO and watch the pH drag faster and faster the lower the conductivity goes. Mine bottomed out at 15ppm tds. I have a streep sak of ceramics in that system that is mature. When I feed the pH bumps up a little also, normally around 0.2 of a point, 20 minutes later and it drags like you will not believe. How I manage my pH now is I let it drag to where I want it and then use the correct amount of shells to keep it there, once that is set and you have worked out the correct tds of the water that needs to go in with water changes you can manage it pretty well. Even Discus Hans contacted me about this.

    Take a big recirculating system that is mature, then start doing RO water changes and just sit back and watch what happens.
     

Recent Posts

Loading...
Similar Threads - Discus fish Forum Date
Hi everyone! New guy (with interest in Discus Fish) New members Jul 8, 2017
Buying Discus fish General Discus discussions Dec 27, 2014
Ocean Nutrition Frozen Discusfood. Made with fresh fish meat (no beef heart), ar... Jungle Aquatics Nov 18, 2013
Discus fish. How do you keep them? Cichlids Jul 19, 2013
Cultivating and feeding White worms for discus and tropical fish General Discussions Jul 15, 2013
Discus or Lung Fish General Discussions Jul 9, 2013
My discus fish make my day everyday!!! General Discus discussions Jun 19, 2013
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page