Rule amendment

Okay, time for my 2 cents...
We spend more time on the Blacklist and - species than the "govermint".
I am fully for the idea of a "Blacklisted section" where we can discuss these species, as in the rules of this forum - no trading/giving away/ asking for etc.
You all made very valuable statements/comments/arguments and I thank you all for your input. I'm sure @Rory and the Mod team appreciate it.
Do you want to know why I don't post pic's on this forum??
I don't know how! - got you there!
Let's do it!

 

+1 Gert

 

This has been a long time coming.
My biggest problem has always been the "policing" of the BL by moderators and,I'll say it again,normal users.If the moderators aren't completely comfortable in the positive identification of every blacklisted plant and fish,then how can the rules be enforced?Then it's left to the users to point out the infringements,which in turn causes all sorts of tension.And even the users aren't all that clued-up on the subject.
And how many times has blacklisted sp. gone by unnoticed,discussed how to keep or propagate?Which species am I talking about?How about anubia plants,Scientific name Anubias barteri - blacklisted.How many times has advise been given on how to tie it to wood,don't bury the rhizome,etc.?
What of hair grass?Scientific name Eleocharis acicularis and Eleocharis parvula - blacklisted.I personally posted a "How to....." on hair grass and it all went by unnoticed.
If the whole list can't be enforced equally and correctly then how can we ban or delete any posts or threads?If some are discussed then all should be discussed.
Think on it.

 

@Rudi....

In defense... not all Anubia is BL. I agree that 90% of anubias that most of us have in out tanks is one of the BL forms, but not all of them are BL. Same as Vallis. Someone is right now GIVING away vallis. At no point in the thread is there any mention of what type of vallis it is. Some forms of Vallis is BL, but we do not know if this Vallis is BL or or not because this member does not give the scientific name. Let's be real here... we all know what vallis looks like, and do we care what the scientific name is??? YET SOME MEMBER STILL feels it their right to REPORT that post to us with a comment "You mod's do know that some Vallis is BL."
My comment to you: "GROW UP DUDE/ETTE" (Not you Rudi.. the person who reported the post)

 

I must admit, i usually go through the BL to check if i indeed keep any....cant believe i missed this one. 1st time for me that this has been brought up.

IMO i don't think most people know the difference from the Bl one and the legal ones. Sometimes i can be pretty straight forward however not always. The Vallisneria gigantea grows massive (in length) but so can the legal ones? Depending on the condition they grown in?

Sorry Zoom....:embarrest:


One thing i have noticed in the past few months is that generally when these types of
threads are started new members jump in not knowing the rules/law about keeping BL species resulting in other members starting arguments, which could end some members visiting the TASA's 'holiday' lodge lol. But yeah...
Generally when i see a thread thats got to do with the BL i just log off because of that.
At least this thread started off calm, relaxed and friendly, but give it time, won't end well

 

I have been watching this thread develop with some interest. When Rory and I initially setup the forum, we implemented the rule to protect both the forum members and ourselves. Members of MCM and DEA Enforcement regularly visit the local forums and they use data gathered on forums in various ways.

Some of the Cape Town members will remember the shop in the Northern Suburbs that was raided a few times and eventually closed down. I have it on good authority that two of these raids were as a direct result of info on one of the local forums. One of the members on MASA is currently fighting a trumped up charge under the Marine Resources Protection Act because he was breeding albino clown fish in his garage. Turns out a lot of the info MCM and co got came from MASA. He was arrested and spent the afternoon in the Bothasig cells.

Every time someone does something illegal/stupid DEA and co sits back and says “see! We told you so!†and a new regulation is made that makes it more difficult for the rest of us. Every time some idiot goes and dumps the content of his goldfish/koi pond in a dam the authorities wants to ban them. I am not sure how many of you are aware, but the initial draft of the new blacklists had goldfish and koi on them.

Some of the species on the current blacklists makes no sense at all! Let us look at the plant black list. It is a combination of a list from Hawaii and Singapore. It simply does not make sense. The fish list is a little more complex. Some of the species on the list are there for a very valid reason i.e. they are extremely invasive e.g., snakeheads, Mozambique tilapia etc. and other are on there because they are protected/native species. The blanket ban on freshwater crustaceans is also heavy handed and has been rectified with the new lists. Freshwater crayfish are extremely invasive whereas the shrimps have a rather poor survival rate. A friend of mine in Europe imported a shipment of shrimps from Singapore and had a DOA of 60% on the box.

I also think part of the problem on TASA is that some of the mods can’t tell a molly from a goldfish. They have no idea of scientific names vs. common names on either plants nor fish. Neither do they know the blacklists and can’t tell by simply reading a post of the fish/plant in the thread is on the list or not. This makes it extremely difficult to enforce the blacklist rule.

Personally I think Rory needs to get some legal advice to find out exactly where the owners/mods risk/responsibility starts and ends with a forum where blacklisted species gets discussed. I also think all new members should be redirected to the blacklists before they are even allowed to post their “Hi I’m new†thread. That way no one can say they didn’t know.

Remember guys – ignorance of the law is no excuse.

My 30 000000 zim cents on the matter.

Henk

 

Amen... No one likes a tattle tale.

I cant see how how a forum with a disclaimer could have any legal implications to any BL raides.

The vital point you missed here is that the problem was not breeding clown fish in his garage.... The problem was the fact that there was a commercial agreement in place. No one on TASA is going to be selling anything on BL... TASA is not opening a for sale thread.

I for one am not even bothered on whether a special forum gets opened. All I want is for everyone to stop being so anal... Like when I open a informative thread about cherry shrimps a member reports me to the mods? My thread was asking a question about the BL people? Come on, we have passed the pre-school stage... We all grown ups here(well, some of us atleast)

 

@Zoom and the mods,my comments are not meant to put you guys in a bad light.It would be unfair to expect the mods to be able to I.D all the blacklisted species.It only shows how fallible the "no discussion" rule is.

The fact that both the plants I mentioned is available from the LFS makes it more difficult.

 

Talking about crime is not a crime, is it?
Unless you are talking about robbing a bank

On a side note @Rudi , I wonder what idiot put anubias on the list anyway
or do I not know something about anubias making me the idiot

 

@Zoom I dont think every post put into the BL section could be moderated surely you guys as Mods dont have that sort of time? Plus if a thread not complying with the rules does get posted just think how excited the tattle tales will get that they can report it

 

Not correct - it was just a memo of understanding that he wont offer it to anyone else should he want to sell it.

 

which was seen as a commercial agreement by DAT

 

Which in terms of law it is not...

 

Ah I see your point. So they still have a case against him for breeding ornamental fish?

 

Not in terms of the Marine Living Resources act.

 

@Henk Hugo... you are just REINFORCING the members request here to be allowed to discuss BL species. We are NOT by any means talking about breeding, selling, requesting... The "box" (translate box to afrikaans) in MASA was not discussing the BL fish of Albino clown fish... he was in fact keeping and breeding them. He was in fact performing an illegal action. He deserves every book of the law thrown at him, with his pants down in jail. I'm sorry Henk... scaring me with stories of this guy in MASA who is in trouble just doesn't cut it... he was in fact breaking the law... PERIOD!
Let's be human here... if we are educated and are given the freedom to discuss the BL... meaning... "Hey guys, I see that fish-X is on the BL... why is that?" Some members can do research, and give a reason why... then we are all a little wiser and will care more for our environment... because we understand better.

Oh.. and let's just be real here... what court in SA is going to imprison you, or give you a R10,000.00 fine because you are trying to find out more information on the Jewel Cichlid?? If you truely are interested in finding information, you will have nothing to hide... meaning, when the authorities do ever catch you asking about the JC, and come inspect your premisis, you have nothing to show/hide.

EXACTLE

Trust me... that sub-forum won't be too busy. It will obviously start off very busy... but I can tell you that 90% of the time there is a mod online. Approving is simply a matter of reading the post and clicking a button. And let's be honest here @FishRMan... we discussing INFORMATION on Blacklist species... what's the rush to get that information??? It's not like you have a sick fish that needs answers chop-chop. If you ask about a BL species and it takes 6 hours before it is put onto the public forum, who cares?

 

Ash please make sure of your facts before you make such accusations. The Marine Living Resources Act was written to protect native species such as abalone, kreef, tuna etc. Hence i reffered to it as trumped up charges. When he told the station commander that you can buy said fish, which was imported legally, in a pet store he was released as the SAPS realised there's a possibility for an unlawful arrest complaint. What MCM is saying is that you need to do an EIA and get a permit to breed any fish. TASA members breeding guppies,angels, discus etc are in violation of the Marine Living Resources act according to MCM.

I strongly suggest that moderators take the time to study the various acts that could possibly come into play before making an decision. Remember to study various verdicts in court cases relating to the acts as it might change the penalties etc set out in the acts. These include the Marine Living Resources Act (it seems to be one they are trying to enforce), the Bio Diversity Act, The Forestry Act, the Agricultural Pests Act etc.

I don't particularly care if there is a section where blacklisted species are discussed as long as the rules are being enforced and at the moment the current moderation team can't enforce the rules as they can't even ID the illegal animals/plants members are offering for sale/swop on the forum.

 

Henk, I don't see how discussing black listed species will break any laws in any act. This is a free country, we are free to information and free to discuss it. If natcon really wants to waste there time and slap me on the hand for keeping valis then they welcome too. If they feel like making bust they can walk in to a lps and make one. They don't have to browse local forums or act like the CIA .

 

Everyone is free to there own opinion butcherman ; ) @butcherman, stealing a car might be a little over the top as comparisn... Maybe speeding might be allong the same lines.