seachem discus buffer

Ok, thanks Seachem for this clarification,

I think I am beginning to understand what the objective is of using Seachem Discus buffer. Perhaps I need to explain a few things here, for the benefit of SA aquarists, but also for the benefit of Seachem.

In South Africa, most areas actually have very soft water in comparison to most areas in the USA and Europe. In the areas of Cape Town in particular, but also Port Elizabeth and Durban, the water has hardly any carbonate hardness, less than 1 dKH and almost no Calcium and Magnesium, in Cape Town, the dGH is 0 and in Port Elizabeth and Durban less than 2 dGH. In Johannesburg the general hardness and the carbonate hardness ais higher, dGH between 2 and 4, and dKH between 2 and 4. In the specific area of Carltonville where Tom comes from, you have the highest general hardness and carbonate hardness in the country besides some other areas in the Karoo region of South Africa, maybe up to 8 dGH and 8 dKH. So in the areas where most aqaurists live, which is in the abovementioned big centres, both general hardness and carbonate hardness are not really all that much of an issue and in general this is a huge advantage to discus keepers here in South Africa. Lowering of alkalinity or carbonate hardness is not an issue at all really, often it is necessary to actually increase pH and alkalinity to overcome too low drops of pH and then Discus Buffer may actually be beneficial. Please comment Seachem?

In the USA and Europe, tapwater has much high general hardness and carbonate hardness levels, also referred to by Seachem as alkalinity. The levels in those areas are far too high for keeping discus healthy, the pH with that high alkalinity would just simply remain far too high all the time and the GH would be far too high. Under such circumstances, I can understand and see what the benefit of the Seachem product can be, it is aimed at reducing calcium and magnesium levels and the way I understand from their post, this happens through precipitation of the Calcium and Magnesium which means that this just simply not longer remains dissolved in the water and basically settles out into the gravel and the filter. If I understand this correctly, this also means that the Calcium and Magnesium is being replaced by some other positively charged ions, I assume sodium, Na, which is not qualified as being part of general hardness, but this is a replacement of one set of ions with another, it is not a removal. Do I understand this correctly seachem? Then I can also understand where seachem is heading with the buffer component in that it is aiming to replace the incredibly high carbonate hardness with something else in order to bring down the pH which is a major problem in those areas.

So where does this leave us in SA? I would like to ask Seachem if they can clarify if their discus buffer can remove calcium if the levels of calcium are around 4 GH, most probably yes, but we have far softer water here for starters already. Furthermore we hardly have any problems with carbonate hardness which they refer to as alkalinity and it is only in areas which do have higher alkalinity that there would be any benefit which would result in a drop in the pH. So in areas such as Johannesburg and say Carltonville with its harder water there may be benefits, I am not so sure about the areas which have very low carbonate hardness.

One of the aspects that I would like to ask Seachem is if this buffer is actually meant to reduce the total content of dissolved solids in tapwater. From what Seachem have explained I interpret this as a replacement of ions but not a complete removal, so addition of Seachem buffer does not soften water as RO does.

Could you clarify these issues please Seachem? South African aquarists are also not all so well versed with the concepts of GH and alkalinity and I will undertake to help to clarify this issue as far as possible so that we can have a clearer understanding of what Seachem is actually trying to achieve with Discus Buffer, as I have explained, we have very different water conditions in most areas here in comparison to the USA or Europe.

Kind regards,

Dirk Bellstedt

 

Thank you for your help Dirk.

You are correct, Discus Buffer is not meant to reduce the TDS of a solution. Discus Buffer is a phosphate based buffer and the main purpose of this product is to buffer the pH to appropriate levels for species such as Discus. It will also help reduce the GH but will only do so if the GH is excessively high. To understand this, we must remember that, in the aquarium hobby, GH or general hardness refers primarily to the concentration of calcium and magnesium ions in the solution. Discus Buffer introduces negatively charged phosphate ions that then bind with the Ca and Mg, precipitating it out of solution. So when dealing with low to moderate GH, typically where most people are wanting to maintain their hardness, Discus Buffer is not going to soften the water. This is important as the calcium and magnesium are necessary for both fish and plants and we would not want to completely strip it from the aquarium.

When dealing with aquariums with low alkalinity, using a product like Discus Buffer is very helpful. Simply put, alkalinity is the measure of the ability of a solution to resist change upon the addition of an acid. This measurement is comprised of the buffering ions present, such as carbonates, borates, phosphates, sulfates, iodates, chlorates, etc. KH or carbonate hardness, on the other hand, is a measure of the available carbonates. While these are part of the alkalinity, they are not a complete representation. So when the alkalinity of your aquarium is very low, you are more likely to see sudden drops or shifts in the pH and are at risk of a pH crash if large amounts of acids are introduced. In the aquarium, these acids are primarily represented by organic acids produced by the aquarium inhabitants and decaying organics. Phosphate based buffers have been used in the hobby for quite some time and are known for their stability. Such buffers, like those used in Discus Buffer, help stabilize the pH because they are capable of binding with more acids than other common buffers.

So, with regular use, Discus Buffer is going to give you a stable pH and in the event that you have high GH, will also help to reduce this. Dirk, i hope this information was what you were looking for to help clarify. If not, I am happy to answer more questions.

 

Hi Seachem and the others that have contributed to the thread,

I think we have a lot more clarity here now. So oscar freak, you have your answer, Discus buffer will lower and stabilize the pH and may remove some calcium and magnesium. Seachem have also clarified that addition of Discus buffer does not reduce TDS, so this does not "soften" the water in that it does not remove everything from the water like RO does. However, the advantage lies in the removal of the calcium and magnesium and the pH reduction which can be helpful if your tapwater has a high carbonate hardness and general hardness. Oscar freak, what you should do is get an accurate measurement of your tapwater's GH and KH and TDS and then you can take a decision about what you want to do. If you want to only reduce pH and GH, then Discus Buffer will do this for you, if you want to reduce TDS then you will also need RO water to get the total levels of dissolved solids down.

As for the use of Discus Buffer in soft water, this has the advantage that it will stabilize the pH at acceptable levels. From my experience with discus this is an important factor to consider. However some view the use of phosphate buffers as negative others positive, but if you have uncontrolled drops in pH then this is more detrimental than a stabilized pH, that I can also vouch for from my discus experience.

So for discus maintenance, I can see the advantages of using Discus Buffer, but if you have water with a high TDS then this water after the addition of Discus Buffer will not be suitable for breeding discus. However, Seachem are not claiming this in their specifications for their product, which needs to be said in their defence, they are offering this product for discus maintenance as I see it.

If any of the local aquarists have more questions, let us put them on the table to see if we can clarify any misunderstandings.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

Thanks again for the help Dirk.

Keep well.

 

Thanks for the opportunity Prof.

I still do not understand the 'precipitating' part, but that is not really important to me personally, as I am using RO. Just for interest sake, how can one decrease gH but not TDS. I have come to understand that it is the same thing virtually, as the major elements of gH is Calsium, being the biggest, then smaller amounts of Magnesium, Potassium and Sodium and some others. These elements is then also measured as TDS and there is even a formula that says TDS / 17.8 = gH. So it seems contradictory to me to say the product is reducing gH but not TDS. In my experiment I found an immediate increase of 60ppm in TDS. I put that down to the addition of Phosphate, which is to form the new buffer. So from my view, the water is now even harder and gH has increased by 3.37 gH. (60/17.8) I understand further that the dose of Discus Buffer must be given daily, until the pH has stabilized at your target. So, everyday you are going to increase your TDS or gH? Say you have a target of 142TDS or 8 gH. Even using RO, you are going to hit this in two days!

I have a feeling I am complicating this too much, so let me rather go over to what I am really interested in.

I am using RO. To restore the correct level of salts, I am using Seachem Replenish and Discus Trace. My fish is all South American and I strive for a pH of 6 and TDS of 120 -140, gH between 7 and 8. Would it be in my interest to bring Discus Buffer into the mix as well, by reducing the Seachem Replenish and Trace? Replenish is made up of Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium and Sodium. By bringing Discus Buffer in, I would therefore increase Phosphate?

If I read the label on Discus Buffer correct, it seems like Seachem is saying use Discuss Buffer and Discus Trace only. But where will the Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium and Sodium then come from?

I am confusing myself so much, I feel like a chameleon on a smarties box! I however must be doing something right, as my Angel fry is now 3 weeks old and growing!

 

Hi Tom,

The point you make is perfectly valid, and you are quite justified to ask, this is quite complex chemistry and the terms used also do not help, as I will explain.

Firstly, on the precipitation point. Some chemicals, on their own remain in solution if you dissolve them, but when you combine two solutions, they will bind to each other so strongly that they can no longer remain in solution and then they will precipitate. Remember something like Sodium Chloride, plain old table salt, will dissolve in water into positively charged Sodium, Na+, which will bind to some water molecules to hold the sodium in solution. and the negatively charged chloride, Cl- will bind to water to hold the chloride in solution as well. However, when you have two ions such as Calcium and phosphate together, they will rather bind to each other instead of to water and then this will mean that the calciumphosphate will just simply form a fine powder in the water which will deposit itself on the tank bottom which we would call a precipitate. Whether two compounds precipitate however depends entirely of what they are chemically and you have to know which these are, this is basic chemistry.

Then the reduction of gH and not TDS, is where I say "that the terms used will also not help". One needs to know exactly what is meant by gH, and this is defined as the calcium and magnesium content, not the contribution of any other dissolved salts such as potassium and sodium. So, if you remove calcium and magnesium and replace them with potassium and sodium, then by definition you are "softening" the water, but it is obvious that you are not reducing the total amount of dissolved substances. This would mean that your TDS would not be reduced, but your hardness WOULD be reduced. This is what is so confusing about all of this. We often think that softness has to do with TOTAL dissolved solids, but by definition this is not the case. What this means is that the calculation of TDS / 17.8 = gH is not valid under such circumstances. This is also because TDS is a measurement of conductivity and all ions, such as calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium do not contribute equally to TDS measurements, again this is confusing, but it is a fact. 1 molar NaCl is not going to give you the same TDS reading as 1 molar KCl.

So, you ask whether you must bring in Discus buffer into your mix? You must ask, if you are having pH drops in your water between water changes. If this is the case then you should consider some Discus buffer, if not you do not need it and can use the mix you used before. When you have soft water and you feed discus strongly which is what you must do, the nitrate production causes the pH to drop if the water is not buffered so the use of Discus Buffer would then be beneficial. So, if you are not having pH drops then you do not need the Discus buffer. If you have pH drops and feel that you want to use some Discus Buffer so that it would stabilize your pH, then you must add some Discus Buffer, but you must not stop using the Seachem Replenish. What you must do is reduce the Replenish, increase the Discus buffer, but KEEP THE TDS constant, but adding less of both. You need to keep your eye on the TDS, but remember that it is not entirely accurate as I have written earlier.

You can see that you are not too far off and your angels document, as you say, that you are doing the right thing.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

Hey Tom,

When high concentrations of Ca and Mg are present, some are going to bind with phosphate producing calcium phosphate and magnesium phosphate. These are not very water soluble and will then fall out of solution. This acts to remove the two primary components of general hardness (GH). General hardness is the measure of metal divalent ions while TDS is the measure of any dissolved substance in a solution, including both organic and inorganic substances. Because TDS is a measure of the "total dissolved solids" it may not be the best measure to build your water with.

Just as an example, if you were setting up two African Cichlid tanks and wanted a TDS of 200. To one aquarium you added the recommended dose of Cichlid Lake Salt and to the other you add sodium chloride. While your TDS in both aquariums will be 200, the fish in the aquarium that you used Cichlid Lake Salt on will thrive while the other tank survives. If you compare the GH of these two aquariums, you will find that the healthy fish are being kept in water with a GH of around 11-12 while the other is showing little to no GH. The calcium and magnesium that comprise the GH are more important that the total dissolved solids. Also, remember that if you use the conversion 200/17.8 in the tank with the sodium chloride, you are not getting an accurate reading.

You are providing these minerals using Replenish and Discus Trace ( thanks for using Seachem products by the way!) and are increasing your GH in doing so. While adding Discus Buffer is going to increase your TDS, it is not increasing a component of that measure that will be harmful to your fish. Instead, it is helping to stabilize your system and provide a better environment for the fish.

While TDS is often used and can be helpful for certain situations, more specific testing is often the better method. General hardness, in particular, is important to pay attention to when keeping and breeding sensitive species.

I hope this helped a little and did not confuse you further Tom. Of course, if your fry are doing well, keep up with what you are doing. As they say, if it isn't broke, don't fix it!

 

Sorry guys, did not realize Dirk had posted already.

For the most part, he and I one together on this one. However, I still recommend paying more attention to GH than to the TDS. Using Replenish and Discus Trace as you have been will not have any impact if you use the Discus Buffer as well. While your TDS is going to go up, your GH will stay the same and you will have a more stable system overall.

Dirk, do you feel that I am way off in left field on this?

 

Thank you @Dirk Bellstedt and @Seachem. I understand much better now and it makes sense!

Damn, back to drop testing?

 

You bet Tom, I am glad that Dirk and I were able to work together and help you.

Sorry about the testing, it seems that it will always be a part of our lives though. Just part of this addiction I suppose.

Keep well and have a good night!

 

i want to to thank the prof and seachem for making it a bit clearer its really going to take a few more reads before it all settles in and a lot more testing before i take it any further.it really is nice to have all this expert advice at hand thanks a lot.

 

Hi Everyone,

I just want to add that I fully agree with Seachem's last comment as well, and I am glad that we have a better understanding now of the whole, rather complex issue.

Kind regards,

Dirk

 

http://www.joburg.org.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=66&limitstart=4

a starting point for me.

 

Oscar Freak,

Thanks for the extra information. With parameters like that, Discus Buffer should work very well for you. The alkalinity is low enough that it should be easy for the buffers to establish themselves and produce the desired pH.

 

thank you again for responding and helping to shed some light on this product i will be adding it to my growing list of seachem products to try.

 

tomk any new results?

 

I canned the experiment, it was of no use.

Reason is my instrument read TDS. That include the phosphates the product is adding to the water. So the water will just look harder and harder, where in fact it is not. To do the experiment you must use drop tests to measure kH and gH on their own. As I am not that into it, I am not going to invest in those tests. I am into RO water and do not need the product. Well, I am still pondering that. Discuss Buffer might be the answer to the constant battle to prevent pH crash, but it complcates my readings with the TDS meter.

 

just mix ro with tap water and your peoblem with stability is solved.

 

Been there, done that. Do not like it because you do not know exactly what your water consist of and what exactly the make up is. You also end up with the same problem, because you dilute the tap water buffer and it is not effective as a buffer anymore.

With Discuss Buffer you build a buffer @ between 5.8 and 6.8 pH, which is where you want to be. With tap water you buffer at above 7ph. I am talking about the natural pH of the compounds in the water. If you dilute the tap water buffer, it will drop below, but can you still call it a buffer? At gH of 8, I promise you, the tap water buffer is gone! With Discuss Buffer you can make the buffer very strong and still maintain 5.8 to 6.8ph without risk of a pH crash. And that is why I am considering it. You can make it a strong buffer without hardening your water, because phosphates do not count towards gH. I am just wondering why @Dirk Bellstedt is not doing it. What is his reason?

 

tom, i had R60k worth of discus in ro tap mix, would not have done that if i wasnt 120% sure it works, enough said.